Have you made formal portrait of schizophrenic person?

jtk · Aug 20, 2018

just a few more bits:

1) I've worked with institutionalized, hallucinating schizophrenics (that simple term is coming back into vogue with shrinks).
2) That someone is incompetent (as in this case) doesn't mean they're incapable of being engaged, creative, relatively normal-seeming.
3) I just said "they" but I don't feel comfortable considering them that way...as "the other".
4) This isn't a "patient" any more than someone with heel spurs would be. This is a complicated, strange human being.
5) If the parent wanted to involve a shrink I would withdraw out of self respect.
6) My main anxiety (which is minimal) involves my own portrait capability.

BrianShaw · Aug 20, 2018

“6) My main anxiety (which is minimal) involves my own portrait capability.”

I wish there was a cure. I know there’s a bottle or pill that might help but the effect is temporary. I can’t smoke even though it has been legalized. I have the same anxiety at times!

Rick A · Aug 20, 2018

Wow, it's as if people believe these are horrific monsters capable of transforming into flesh devouring beasts at the drop of a hat. News flash: they are people, treat them kindly, just like you would like to be treated. And do not be condescending. sheesh

Theo Sulphate · Aug 20, 2018

jtk said:
...
6) My main anxiety (which is minimal) involves my own portrait capability.

How well do you relate to this person? Would they be at ease or stressed by the process (camera, lights, screen or umbrella)?

I think if this person can be at ease with what you're doing,the result could be good. If stressed, I don't think the results would be good for anyone.

I admit that this is only my uneducated opinion here.

jtk · Aug 20, 2018

Theo, I've spent about two very relaxed-seeming hours with him during two meetings...during the second meeting I brought up the idea of a portrait, which may not have been noticed but didn't raise any alarms. His parent has asked directly but he's non-committal...which may be his baseline-normal.

I'm thinking about a cold light rather than strobe but can do what I need in open shade.

Berkeley Mike · Aug 23, 2018

I worked in acute short-term psychiatric care for 11 years. Aside from considerations for care and caution, I doubt that anyone here can appreciate the qualities and tendencies of your subject. In health care a basic tenet is understanding that people in your "care" are, in some ways, at your mercy. As such, we act conservatively and try to "do no harm." Out of consideration for the circumstance I would not be aggressive with my set-up but approach it from a minimalist direction. Strobes and bright lights? Nope. Available light. If things work out, the future might hold a more elaborate set-up.

I am with Sirius on this: "In your case, you know what you are dealing with, you know the family, you will not share the photograph with anyone outside the family, so if you can deal with it and do a good job why not?" Don't overthink this; that is driven by your mild neurosis about executing a portrait and a respectful caution. Get your mind right. The family and your subject are lucky to have your involvement. Pack your gear and go do your work.

BrianShaw · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
Theo, I've spent about two very relaxed-seeming hours with him during two meetings...during the second meeting I brought up the idea of a portrait, which may not have been noticed but didn't raise any alarms. His parent has asked directly but he's non-committal...which may be his baseline-normal.

I'm thinking about a cold light rather than strobe but can do what I need in open shade.

Could it be that they don’t understand the basis of your photographic interest?

Wallendo · Aug 23, 2018

Does this schizophrenic look any different from anybody else? If not, standard photographic technic are appropriate. As for "competence", I doubt many photographers have problems photographing children, who are also legally incompetent.

In this particular case, with a person who cannot function outside the home, making the portrait in or around his home and with a parent or other relative present may be beneficial.

I suspect the OP may have photographed a number of schizophrenics in the past and not realized that fact.

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
I worked in acute short-term psychiatric care for 11 years. Aside from considerations for care and caution, I doubt that anyone here can appreciate the qualities and tendencies of your subject. In health care a basic tenet is understanding that people in your "care" are, in some ways, at your mercy. As such, we act conservatively and try to "do no harm." Out of consideration for the circumstance I would not be aggressive with my set-up but approach it from a minimalist direction. Strobes and bright lights? Nope. Available light. If things work out, the future might hold a more elaborate set-up.

I am with Sirius on this: "In your case, you know what you are dealing with, you know the family, you will not share the photograph with anyone outside the family, so if you can deal with it and do a good job why not?" Don't overthink this; that is driven by your mild neurosis about executing a portrait and a respectful caution. Get your mind right. The family and your subject are lucky to have your involvement. Pack your gear and go do your work.

Thanks

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

Wallendo said:
Does this schizophrenic look any different from anybody else? If not, standard photographic technic are appropriate. As for "competence", I doubt many photographers have problems photographing children, who are also legally incompetent.

In this particular case, with a person who cannot function outside the home, making the portrait in or around his home and with a parent or other relative present may be beneficial.

I suspect the OP may have photographed a number of schizophrenics in the past and not realized that fact.

If we have photographed many people at all, we have for sure photographed people some would call "schizophrenic." It happens that schizophrenia isn't just one thing and it may not be a thing at all.

"Competence" is a legal term. Photographers are increasingly cautious about photographing other people's children.

Yes, this person looks quite "different" , just as black people do in white suburbia, just as I do among Navajo people.

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Could it be that they don’t understand the basis of your photographic interest?

Perhaps. What's your point?

Do "normal" people "understand the basis of YOUR photographic interest?"

There's always risk in photographing anbody. There's always risk in every action. At some point we take those risks.

faberryman · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
Perhaps. What's your point? Do "normal" people "understand the basis of YOUR photographic interest?" There's always risk in photographing anbody. There's always risk in every action. At some point we take those risks.

What's the "risk" exactly of photographing someone with their consent?

wy2l · Aug 23, 2018

Can't help here. All my mentally ill relatives are in state hospitals, and they don't allow cameras... Something about patient's right of privacy.

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

faberryman said:
What's the "risk" exactly of photographing someone with their consent?

Can't help you with that. I don't do "street."

faberryman · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
Can't help you with that. I don't do "street."

Perhaps you could re-read my comment in light of your post. It has nothing to do with "street".

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

wy2l said:
Can't help here. All my mentally ill relatives are in state hospitals, and they don't allow cameras... Something about patient's right of privacy.

Few schizophrenic people are institutionalized or are even "patients." Most live among us, one way or another. Some "homeless" people are schizophrenic but I suspect most of them are not.

"right of privacy" does relate to competency, which does relate to my anticipated project. I think (don't "know") that if he agrees to have a portrait, and if his parent (a photographer who has not photographed him since childhood) agrees, this isn't an issue. I also think that if this portrait can be accomplished the subject is likely to be gratified, and I think that'd be worth the "risk" taken by both of us.

faberryman · Aug 23, 2018

Again, what exactly is the "risk" you are talking about? Provided he cooperates, just make the portrait and be done with it. A tempest in a teapot.

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

faberryman said:
Perhaps you could re-read my comment in light of your post. It has nothing to do with "street".

Please tell me what you have on your mind, specifically.

My "street" response relates to interpersonal relationship. If we personally engage our subjects on the street there's a different personal risk than if we pretend to be HCB. All relationships with subjects involve some sort of risk, if only the risk of a lousy photo.

I'm not worried about my own physical safety. The risks I know about include a) will I do well as a photographer and b) will the subject turn out to be capable of engaging with me, the photographer ...and c) will the subject be happy with the results.

faberryman · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
Please tell me what you have on your mind, specifically.

My "street" response relates to interpersonal relationship. If we personally engage our subjects on the street there's a different personal risk than if we pretend to be HCB. All relationships with subjects involve some sort of risk, if only the risk of a lousy photo.

I'm not worried about my own physical safety. The risks I know about include a) will I do well as a photographer and b) will the subject turn out to be capable of engaging with me, the photographer ...and c) will the subject be happy with the results.

This is so over-thought/over-wrought it is ridiculous.

Bill Burk · Aug 23, 2018

If your standards for how well you know a subject are met, go ahead and shoot.

I like portraits that I take better, and I feel they are higher quality, when I know the subject.

How well I know them is a different question. Besides how well do we know anybody?

But the longer and better I know someone, the more I like the pictures that I take of them.

And maybe a few visits is enough to give you that feeling that you can capture something of that person's essence.

.

BrianShaw · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
Perhaps. What's your point?

Do "normal" people "understand the basis of YOUR photographic interest?"

There's always risk in photographing anbody. There's always risk in every action. At some point we take those risks.

Well... I guess my point is that it's taking an awful lot of thought and thinking on your part about the ethics and the process and the risks... why haven't you asked and done the session yet?

Your interest seems well intentioned but seems focused on the schizophrenia. Or maybe your anxieties. We all have them so I understand. If this person has an interesting face... that's a good intent... just say it and do it if they are willing. Yet this interest may have nothing to do with the difference between "normal" and having a mental illness.

I'm a little confused about what looks from the outside as "beating around the bush" and was wondering if the parents (or the person himself) is wondering why you are so tentative.

Please don't find this offensive but it doesn't seem like you are very close to this family, describe the visits as "meetings" and if you don't know them well I'd understand your tentativeness. But I'd also understand if they were cautious trying to figure it out as I am. Please don't be offended... I offer this as an observations and not a judgment.

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Well... I guess my point is that it's taking an awful lot of thought and thinking on your part about the ethics and the process and the risks... why haven't you asked and done the session yet?

Your interest seems well intentioned but seems focused on the schizophrenia. Or maybe your anxieties. We all have them so I understand. If this person has an interesting face... that's a good intent... just say it and do it if they are willing. Yet this interest may have nothing to do with the difference between "normal" and having a mental illness.

I'm a little confused about what looks from the outside as "beating around the bush" and was wondering if the parents (or the person himself) is wondering why you are so tentative.

Please don't find this offensive but it doesn't seem like you are very close to this family, describe the visits as "meetings" and if you don't know them well I'd understand your tentativeness. But I'd also understand if they were cautious trying to figure it out as I am. Please don't be offended... I offer this as an observations and not a judgment.

Brian, thanks. Good observations & questions. I'm not focused on "the schizophrenia" ...I am focused on the one individual. Yes, I may be too focused on the way this person presents himself (I think he's stuck in a role). I'm not "very close" to these people, but I socialize with them. It may be that his parent is cautious, even over-cautious. That'd be OK. I'm not applying any pressure. The parent is a fine photographer and does know my work. I have no need to do this but maybe it could be rewarding for all involved.

Given what I know about these people I'm not looking for any decision, nearterm or otherwise.

BrianShaw · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
... and if his parent (a photographer who has not photographed him since childhood) agrees, ...

This should be telling you something. There is either something your not mentioning, or something they are not mentioning. If you need me to translate, please PM.

jtk · Aug 23, 2018

faberryman said:
This is so over-thought/over-wrought it is ridiculous.

best wishes

Bill Burk said:
If your standards for how well you know a subject are met, go ahead and shoot.

I like portraits that I take better, and I feel they are higher quality, when I know the subject.

How well I know them is a different question. Besides how well do we know anybody?

But the longer and better I know someone, the more I like the pictures that I take of them.

And maybe a few visits is enough to give you that feeling that you can capture something of that person's essence.

.

Yes. How well do we know anybody? "Something of that person's essence" may be my goal.

faberryman · Aug 23, 2018

jtk said:
best wishes.

As I told my kids, just do your best job.

Have you made formal portrait of schizophrenic person?

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