Have JOBO's patents in the meantime expired or are we actually dealing with product pirates ?

Agulliver

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This really does look like a knock-off. It reminds me of the audio cassettes that were oh so close to looking like TDK and Maxell back in the 80s....the designs of the J-cards, labels and shells and designations such as "D" or "XL" made them look - to the untrained eye - like the real thing.

This is clearly designed to make you think "Jobo". Even if you're fully aware it's not Jobo, you might be convinced that it's almost as good at a knock down price. Possibly interchangeable with the real thing. It's a bit like Nanjing Auto Company producing a car that, on the outside at least, looks a hell of a lot like a Mercedes-Benz. Jobo probably have copyright to the design of their tanks and accessories, but these products might just get away with looking similar while not being compatible....if, in fact, they are not compatible. the thing is, while they have got a very similar general look including the colour scheme and locking collars on the tank....they're not putting anything close to the Jobo logo on them....unlike those fake cassettes I mentioned.

And note that there's nothing in law preventing another company from producing compatible products. But they'd have to state that.

I've got Paterson, Jobo and an unbranded tank identical to the Kaiser one above. they all do the job. I happen to prefer the Jobo, I do think it's the best product in terms of quality and ease of use. But that's just me, how it works with my hands and available work space and my workflow. The others are all perfectly acceptable alternatives, and if I hadn't lucked into buying the Jobo tank and bits back in 2004 when the local shop was selling them as "new old stock" cheaply....I'd probably have gone with a modern Paterson and never known any better.
 

Don_ih

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logan2z said:
I don't use their rotary processors, but I like the Jobo tanks/reels for hand inversion. The tanks don't leak and the reels are easy to load, IMO.
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I find the 1000 series reels are easier to load than the 1500 series.
 

Henning Serger

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Beverly Hills said:
I found it on the net some weeks before. The seller is located in china. Perhaps there is a Joint Venture with JOBO?
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No, there is definitely no joint venture at all with JOBO.
Just the opposite.
For many years now chinese product pirates try to copy original JOBO products. But you always will get much less quality.
A developing tank looks like a "simple" product, but it isn't. To get consistent, reliable quality which works for decades (like original JOBO) you need extremely precise production machinery and quality control. JOBO has that ( I know because I visited their factory in my function as an independent author for a German film photography magazine).

I recommend to avoid these cheap copy attempts. The original JOBO equipment will serve you very well for decades (I use JOBO equipment that has been serving me perfectly for decades). And therefore in the long run the JOBO gear has an unsurpassed price-performance ratio. And the JOBO 1520 tank for example has also the advantage that less chemistry is needed in comparison to the equivalent Paterson tank.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Beevo

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mshchem said:
This has been going on for several years. It's not close to Jobo in my opinion.
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I agree on the quality. I bought one of the 4X5 loading jigs. The chute was 3D printed and of decent quality, though a 0.188" washer needed to be added to raise the chute so the film would alight with the reel.

The spindle the reel sits on had to be put in my lathe and turned down a little bit so the reels didn't require prying to remove.

I wound up with one of the 2500 tanks for two 4X5 reels and everything fits like the original.

That said if I wasn't in a hurry I would have shopped for used JOBO
 

DREW WILEY

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Right materials too. I had a polypropylene door latch to my truck finally break after 200,000 miles. The originals are not longer made; and the Chinese knockoff replacement part lasts only a couple months - styrene. Wrong plastic.

So there I was in the darkroom yesterday, popping the lid and cap of my Jobo hand drum for the upteenth time over the past 30 yrs, and nothing cracked or fatigued yet. That kind of reliability takes some serious forethought and testing in terms of components. Not just any plastic will work.
 

Beevo

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In the case of the loading chute the 3D material should be fine, it looks like they used PETG or ABS. It is stiffer than PLA.

The drum itself is all I wanted, I have loads of inversion and cog drive lids.
 

Kilgallb

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I have worked with Chinese developers and manufactures for 20 years. They are as good at engineering, and as passionate about quality as any American, Canadian, or British counterparts.

As for the comment on ethics, that is just a racist trope.
 

BMbikerider

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But still stealing other companies ideas and product production. How come you class it as racist. Since when has theft been racist per se? Don't start with the race card when it does not apply!
 

BMbikerider

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I agree with what you have said but have a look at post 108 which gives a different viewpoint but is in my opinion a distorted, biased view.

Yes their products do last and are well made. I have a Jobo CPE2 processor which I bought 2nd had in 2000 and now looking a bit work worn, but still performing as well as it was designed to. The only item I have that has failed is a developing tank that cracked - not a manufacturing fault but mine after I dropped it.
 
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koraks

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BMbikerider said:
But still stealing other companies ideas and product production. How come you class it as racist. Since when has theft been racist per se? Don't start with the race card when it does not apply!
Click to expand...

The original formulation used in post #100 ("It is such a vast country with little in the way of scruples") is problematic since it generalizes across an entire country and its people. Please refrain from making such statements in the future. They're not required to highlight the problem with widespread IPR violations by Chinese manufacturers, which I think all of us recognize and have come across.

Kilgallb said:
As for the comment on ethics, that is just a racist trope.
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In cases like these, please use the 'report' function. Thanks for your consideration.
 

Besk

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Kilgallb said:
I have worked with Chinese developers and manufactures for 20 years. They are as good at engineering, and as passionate about quality as any American, Canadian, or British counterparts.

As for the comment on ethics, that is just a racist trope.
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Not quite so in my personal experience.
 

DREW WILEY

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Depends. Sheer junk is what a lot of US and even EU distributors demand - lowest bid, period. I had a front row seat to that for decades, and managed to successfully compete with it on a high quality basis. I also knew quite a few people trying to get things manufactured in China, some of it very high quality (requiring almost infinite patience to find the right sources), but the majority just looking to cut corners. However, darkroom products are such a tiny niche in the overall scheme of things, there isn't a whole lot of money involved to begin with. Yet that fact in itself doesn't preclude outright piracy.

Some of you might be shocked to know that the Business School of the University of Beijing is actually a sister program overseen by a particular branch of the University of California, and I know well the actual person formerly in charge. My own wife studied there for a year as part of a UC exchange student program. China is a big complex country, with a very diverse population, which includes a lot of foreign investment and expertise too. Stereotypes don't come out of nowhere, but they should never been mistaken for universals.
 

mshchem

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One quick note.
I went down to my darkroom today, mixed up some C-41, fired up mu CPP3, developed 9 rolls of 35mm Portra 400. Everything works flawlessly!
I started using Jobo about 10 years ago, used equipment, (which still works nearly 40 years old).

Nothing is as versatile as these machines, can do whatever you want.
 

Beevo

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I have had my CPE/Lift processor since the 90's. All the stuff, reels etc sat on the shelf from 2008 until now. Pulled it out a year ago and everything works albeit dusty. LOL

As far as chinese clones/ethics, the company I manage technical support for that builds automotive PC based scan tools had our hardware and software security hacked in 2011. The replication of the tool was pretty good. They used slightly different housings and colors of plastics and purposefully misspelled our name on the label to avoid us being able to really do something about it.

We got a judgment against the individual stateside who bought the tool and sent it to them (serialized hardware) and I have followed his journey around the country and at each new employer they are given a demand for money to be withheld from his pay to cover the judgement. While we actually spend almost as much as we would receive on the lawyer fees, it is satisfying....

The good part was the tool that they he sent to them had a fatal defect in the chip programming and firmware which made it a one version product. BTW, they replicated it perfectly down to the last byte/bit.

We had to redesign the security model and add a security dongle. Each of our interfaces had a unique electronic serial number. All of theirs used a single number which we wrote into further versions of the software. If you plugged one of theirs into a later version of the software the program would brick the connector.

We got lots of complaints from our "customers' for about a year. ROFLMAFO
 

Sirius Glass

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I am heartened to see that you prevailed and have been able to collect much of your costs.
 

Beevo

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Funny part is I know the guy from attending the various professional automotive technician conferences.

It is my mission to do this. LOL
 

DREW WILEY

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Chinese piracy of patented products is so prolific that it's like a cattle stampede. You might be able to isolate and calm down one or two cows, but the rest of the herd will just keep going. The odds are in their favor. It takes a lot of will and money to handle incidents. Many container loads of counterfeit goods arrive at our ports every single day. It's especially bad with respect to auto parts, but goes well beyond that. Big box outlets don't give a damn, and even foster it. Amazon doesn't conscientiously monitor the problem either. It's really up to the end user to decide if their going to fuel the wildfire or not. But often they don't even know the distinction, or how to detect it.

Unfortunately, with respect to basic darkroom accessories, options are beginning to run out. So you decide. Catlabs still offers a small selection of real Jobo replacement pieces, but their inventory is spotty. And I don't know that there is enough demand to incentivize a new startup of such gear anywhere, even among conscientious Chinese manufacturers. At a certain point, DIY drums and rotation devices are just too obvious of an option to overlook. But I hope authentic Jobo stays in the game, and will continue to be around.
 
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Beevo

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All good points.

I have gotten what little I needed in the way of Jobo stuff used on eBay or from CatLabs. The loading chute was sold and replaced with a used unit when I managed to find one for sale.

I try to avoid known knockoffs if at all possible.

Trying to find quality items gets tougher and tougher every year. The big issue is consumers for the most part only shop for price. I myself would prefer to only buy something once.
 

mshchem

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Just this last week I bought one of these Chinese Jobo copies. It's amazing, it's like when the USSR copied a Boeing B-29. The parts are extremely hard to tell apart from Jobo. 3 reel tank, except it uses a weird extension tube.
I mostly bought this to try the reels. They have guide wings like the AP reels. They fit Jobo center columns. First try tonight, they ratchet like Paterson reels, they have little steel balls.
However it really feels like it's pushing hard to load a 36 exp roll. First time not impressed. I need to try a couple more films.
I have zero problems loading Jobo reels once I learned to nip off the tiniest bit of the film (I use a tiny corner rounder) film glides on, someone in Germany who designed the reels knew how to specify the appropriate resin.

If you can live with the nuances of these outfits, some people might actually prefer them.
 

DREW WILEY

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I've been in a number of prototyping sessions with German engineers. It's amazing how much forethought and testing they put into even seemingly simple projects. Often the Chinese would skip right over the prototyping and testing phase, and go straight to mass production. The appearance of the end product might have been almost indistinguishable, but the performance was totally different.
 

Henning Serger

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DREW WILEY said:
Unfortunately, with respect to basic darkroom accessories, options are beginning to run out.
Click to expand...

Not concerning JOBO:
All of their products are in current, regular production, and they have even introduced several new products - including new and improved rotary processors - to the market.
Just have a look: https://www.jobo.com/?ecms_lang=EN

And they are working on even more new amazing products, stay tuned .

Best regards,
Henning
 

MCB18

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Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but regardless if it is actually IP theft, jobo can’t do anything about it. The reason most of the knock-offs come from China is because the government doesn’t care. Jobo has to sue them in Chinese courts, and they are notorious for never siding with foreigners.
 

DREW WILEY

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Most piracy in general is due to the outright complicity of large US outlets. Try suing a big box chain. They have bigger legal departments than most counties, and often themselves exhibit an utter disregard for patents and even basic product safety laws.

I personally know a number of people who have been stabbed in the back by the big box chains, who showed them a patented clever item, gave them a sample, got turned down, and then found an imported counterfeit of the same thing on the shelves a few months later. "Go ahead, sue us" was the response, "we'll starve you out, and not even your grandchildren will see a dime". It can get even worse than that, but no sense going there on this thread. There have been some serious felony convictions, but they are far and few between. Usually, the offending importer/seller will simply pay a token fine and factor it into the cost basis.

Any attempted Jobo knockoff issue is a tiny ant by comparison. But ants multiply; so don't feed them. If manufacturers come up with innovative products of their own, that's a different story. But C'mon, drums and so forth that look just like Jobo, right down to the color scheme ... coincidence?

The Chinese simply do what they are contracted to do. If domestic dealers order junk and counterfeit goods, that is what they get. A lot of the blame falls on our own side of the ocean, especially within our own corporate culture. I saw it first hand for three decades. I also know inside stories of how things get switched around at our ports, allowing counterfeit items to get through and become mixed in with legitimate stock. The offenders even have counterfeit security seals these days. The problem exists on an organized crime level, just like the illegal export of hazmat materials the other direction.
 
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