Have JOBO's patents in the meantime expired or are we actually dealing with product pirates ?

Hassasin · Mar 30, 2023

Don Heisz said:
I'd guess the quality on almost all these things is pretty close to the quality of the authentic article. Like I said earlier, the Jobo-copy stuff I have is fine. I got it a lot cheaper than it's being sold for now, though. And, at the time, I completely assumed Jobo was out of business (I got my Jobo stuff used - it was already over 20 years old).
Currently, though, the knock-off prices don't seem to be much cheaper than the genuine Jobo - so there's no real good reason to buy them.

Just curious, how do the knock-offs compare to the 20 year old originals, material and fit wise?

Hassasin · Mar 30, 2023

I have to say the more I see these things in this thread, the more disturbing these JOBO look alikes become. They could have come up with a different color scheme. Of course that would not have drawn in much crowd mistakenly seeing a JOBO pitch, only to find out it ain't so.

Don_ih · Mar 30, 2023

Hassasin said:
Just curious, how do the knock-offs compare to the 20 year old originals, material and fit wise?

I only have one fake tank. The tank itself doesn't have ribs inside (being a large diameter tank, that's a failing. It connects seamlessly with my Jobo big tank extension, my Jobo lid goes on it well, but the knock off lid is difficult to get on the actual Jobo tank. It's tight. But the knock-off lid goes on the knock-off tank well.
I actually wanted the core, when I bought it. My original core is looking iffy. And I thought it might be better for developing 8x10 paper than my normal Jobo 2500 plus extension. It's not. The lack of ribs makes getting a sheet of paper out it too irritating and potentially damaging (to the paper).

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

Hassasin said:
Just curious, how do the knock-offs compare to the 20 year old originals, material and fit wise?

Serioisly - I can't commend on the quality of JOBO because
I've never bought anything from this company.
I used to know some photographers who swear by it.
My developing tank that I bought back then is the original one here :

It was very reliable for decades and was very sufficient for the conditions at the time.
One day the cap was suddenly missing and that's the only reason I replaced it with the identical tank from AP.

If you now want to know whether there are quality differences after about 20 years, I would say the original cap was a little tighter than the new one.
That's because it's a completely different plastic today.

What I noticed about JOBO, however, is that on the manufacturer's website the caps are offered in a pack of three for the simple standard tank (1510/1520) :

Anyone who thinks badly about it is first surprised at the
overprised offer and secondly could conclude that the caps
also leak over time and should then be replaced.

However - I would just assume that the quality of the development tanks offered today is actually very close and that the comparison with the quality 20 years ago may be
deceptive because in retrospect one generally tends to
gloryfy the past.

Have a nice time !

Duceman · Mar 30, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
Honestly, it’s posts (and threads) like this that make me think I‘m wasting my time on this site. I tried to offer the legal framework that governs this question. Another poster (a nonlawyer who lives in Canada) tells me my analysis is “weird.” And now you tell me that it’s “empty” because the economics of product piracy overwhelm the legal remedies.

You are certainly right about the economics. But that is a non sequitur. What has that to do with the legal framework for protecting trademarks in the United States? And why disparage my explanation as empty? Can you not make your valid point, that the law is not well-equipped to redress the flood of product piracy, without disparaging someone who’s trying to offer an answer to the OP’s question?

To be clear, you've stated that this would be "...a rather simple trade dress case to prove[,]" that it was a "slam dunk[,]" and that you'd take it on "contingency." I don't think anyone here is saying, at least not me, that it is unwinnable, but at the same time, it would appear that you're painting much too rosy a picture as to the ease of winning.

First off, I'm not aware of JOBO having any U.S. registration covering the trade dress in question. If my understanding on this is incorrect, please provide me with the registration number. Regardless, while this in and of itself does not prevent JOBO from asserting claims under the Lanham Act you cited to previously, it does mean that JOBO will have to prove that it has trademark rights to assert. With trade dress, this is no simple task. Trade dress is never inherently distinctive, so JOBO will have to prove that its trade dress has obtained secondary meaning within the consuming public, including that they have exclusive rights to said trade dress. This is where the other similar color schemes and competing products within the industry come into play; if JOBO is not the exclusive user of said color scheme, it will make their case of having obtained secondary meaning that much more difficult. Mind you, I'm not saying impossible, but again, you're the one who has asserted that this case is "rather simple" and a "slam dunk." Moreover, in addition to having to publicly provide sales and advertising information, this type of matter will no doubt have to include a survey of the consuming public, and expert witness in support thereof, of which one hopes it comes back in JOBO's favor.

Second, and only if all the above has been proved (i.e., that JOBO's color scheme/product look has obtained secondary meaning and therefore has assertable trademark rights in its trade dress), then you need to prove likelihood of confusion. I'm not aware of anyone saying that there are instances of actual confusion going on (e.g., "I bought this thinking that it was a JOBO based upon its looks but later learned that it was not."), so again this could be an uphill battle. Without going into all of the intricacies, this will more than likely mean that another survey of the consuming public will have to be taken (or at least an enlarged first survey covering more than one issue); not only are these not inexpensive (low six figures is not out of the ballpark for survey and supporting expert witness), but they need to come back in JOBO's favor.

In short... I think there's a lot of variables here which could make this a difficult case.

DREW WILEY · Mar 30, 2023

I already gave a few brass tacks hints. Ask anyone who has been in that scenario. It's like trying to recite law to a charging cattle stampede, which has a whole lot more mass than momentum than you do. Don't take it personally. I have family members in highly successful legal careers who wouldn't have any better luck on a personal patent infringement complaint than a fisherman trying to market a new hook patent. The courts are overwhelmed as it is. And just how many lawyers are willing to work pro bono to redress the loss of a few thousand dollars a year on some hobby darkroom item?

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
Honestly, it’s posts (and threads) like this that make me think I‘m wasting my time on this site. I tried to offer the legal framework that governs this question. Another poster (a nonlawyer who lives in Canada) tells me my analysis is “weird.” And now you tell me that it’s “empty” because the economics of product piracy overwhelm the legal remedies.

You are certainly right about the economics. But that is a non sequitur. What has that to do with the legal framework for protecting trademarks in the United States? And why disparage my explanation as empty? Can you not make your valid point, that the law is not well-equipped to redress the flood of product piracy, without disparaging someone who’s trying to offer an answer to the OP’s question?

Thanks Sanders, your point ist clear ! I gues there is allways a difference between law and practice.
Of course your position is from the theoretical side and perhaps Drew Wiley's position comes from reality practice!

I remember a report from the past (some years behind) from
Chinese authorities taking action against pirates rings in China! Maybe the Chinese want to benefit from trademark
protection themselfes ?

On the other hand is trademark protection in China ( guess it is allowed to state) not a difference between theory and practice like your little fight here ...
It is a real farce !

Duceman · Mar 30, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
For one example: A section 43(a) claim under the Lanham Act does not require registration with the USPTO.

What part of "...[r]egardless, while [lack of a registration] in and of itself does not prevent JOBO from asserting claims under the Lanham Act you cited to previously, it does mean that JOBO will have to prove that it has trademark rights to assert..." did you not understand?

DREW WILEY · Mar 30, 2023

In my case, I had a national reputation for making new equipment concepts take off like a rocket in construction equipment applications. So just about every new thing, or every aspiring inventor of such things, would show up at my office for an opinion. Some already had patents; others were considering whether to undergo the fuss and expense or not. And scaling up was a principle many didn't understand : practical prototypes became mass-production nightmares; thriving local cottage industries would go broke once they took on the extra overhead necessary for wider regional expansion.

The choice was often between bankruptcy going it on your own, or selling your rights in desperation, and receiving a royalty too small to even pay for your morning coffee. A number of innovations did catch on, and were even contracted to big box stores. But then they'd discover they were being charged stiff storage rates for mass-manufactured product, deliberately kept away from any actual stores presence for sake of those fees, while the retail shelves themselves suddenly did have cheap Chinese knock-offs of those very items!

Yet these inventor-entrepreneurs had no profit margin to either allow them to hire a serious lawyer, or even show proof of loss of substantial sales. The big box chain could simply print out a report showing that the product was a failure and didn't sell. Meanwhile, the fakes would be removed from sight. The little guy loses most of the time! Only the big manufacturing Corps with their own legal Depts and huge financial reserves win any battles. Just watch some of those fun Shark TV episodes, and their routine remark that a patent doesn't protect you a bit from import knockoff piracy, unless you have your own substantial legal dept.

And here I am, based on my own experience, citing kinds of products potentially useful to millions of users, and proving so in actual sales, hundreds of millions of dollars overall, once these things caught on nationwide, yet doing so on a forum where the specific items in question probably sells in the dozens at most to this entire country! We're talking about a flea on the back of a hamster. With pies fights going on about intellectual property rights and patent infringements, and industrial spying, between Pharma a Techie companies, with billions of dollars at stake each instance, do you really think a skilled lawyer is going to be interested in defending one plastic film processing canister versus another?

Sirius Glass · Mar 30, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
I can see your point mshchem : PRODUCTPLACEMENT !

But no - i really have no interest in making any product popular here .....beliefe me or beliefe me not ......!

How can I make it up to you now ? Will you be able to forgive me afterwards, so I get one last chance?......?

So let me try :

Hallo Guys and Dolls....

you are new and shot film ? It is a fascinating experience,
you can really belive me, i know what i'm talking about !

However - hand on heart, but do you want to immerse yourself in the truly breathtaking experience of a bygone era? So if you really want to belong you absolutely have
to develope your films yourselfs.

THE FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO IS DECIDE ON THE RIGHT DEVELOPEMENT CAN !

THIS DOES NOT HAVE TO COME FROM JOBO !

HERE ARE ALTERNATIVES, SOME ARE SLIGHTLY CHEAPER, SOME EVEN BETTER THAN JOBO PRODUCTS !

View attachment 334227

View attachment 334229 View attachment 334236

Where is the temperature controlled bath, chemical input spout, and the tank or drum lifting arm for raise and emptying the tank or drum? Its called "Fakin' it, but not makin' it".

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Where is the temperature controlled bath, chemical input spout, and the tank or drum lifting arm for raise and emptying the tank or drum? Its called "Fakin' it, but not makin' it".

I would say that you can get there with a simple developing tank for black and white.....

But If you want you can also start with this here :

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Where is the temperature controlled bath, chemical input spout, and the tank or drum lifting arm for raise and emptying the tank or drum? Its called "Fakin' it, but not makin' it".

...aha...now I understand you, sorry Sirius Glass. You are of the opinium that a simple development can is not enough to start developing film?

.....there should be people who started with less !

But you'll surely be right. Maybe we could agree that we
recommend b&w film development to beginners first?

...by the way why do you need a lifting arm?

Look - here is a real nice Basic Set,......there are many others
avaible from different manufacturer's.

I don't remember anything about this from China. It doesn't
matter because who has to buy a fake starter set where the
lifting arm isn't included afterwards.....

!

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

......ähm....... sorry wrong video!

But this is about film development first

Rayt · Mar 30, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
In my case, I had a national reputation for making new equipment concepts take off like a rocket in construction equipment applications. So just about every new thing, or every aspiring inventor of such things, would show up at my office for an opinion. Some already had patents; others were considering whether to undergo the fuss and expense or not. And scaling up was a principle many didn't understand : practical prototypes became mass-production nightmares; thriving local cottage industries would go broke once they took on the extra overhead necessary for wider regional expansion.

The choice was often between bankruptcy going it on your own, or selling your rights in desperation, and receiving a royalty too small to even pay for your morning coffee. A number of innovations did catch on, and were even contracted to big box stores. But then they'd discover they were being charged stiff storage rates for mass-manufactured product, deliberately kept away from any actual stores presence for sake of those fees, while the retail shelves themselves suddenly did have cheap Chinese knock-offs of those very items!

Yet these inventor-entrepreneurs had no profit margin to either allow them to hire a serious lawyer, or even show proof of loss of substantial sales. The big box chain could simply print out a report showing that the product was a failure and didn't sell. Meanwhile, the fakes would be removed from sight. The little guy loses most of the time! Only the big manufacturing Corps with their own legal Depts and huge financial reserves win any battles. Just watch some of those fun Shark TV episodes, and their routine remark that a patent doesn't protect you a bit from import knockoff piracy, unless you have your own substantial legal dept.

And here I am, based on my own experience, citing kinds of products potentially useful to millions of users, and proving so in actual sales, hundreds of millions of dollars overall, once these things caught on nationwide, yet doing so on a forum where the specific items in question probably sells in the dozens at most to this entire country! We're talking about a flea on the back of a hamster. With pies fights going on about intellectual property rights and patent infringements, and industrial spying, between Pharma a Techie companies, with billions of dollars at stake each instance, do you really think a skilled lawyer is going to be interested in defending one plastic film processing canister versus another?

Very true. I have over 25 years of experience as an in-house IP lawyer for a major global European brand and then a litigation consultant mainly for China representing small inventors to multinationals and you’ll be surprised what the brands find important. I particularly get satisfaction helping the little guys but they seem to skimp out on registering their rights in China thinking it must be a waste of money because you know it’s Chinnnnnnaaah. No kidding. We will win the case if IP rights existed, and if there’s evidence of infringement thereof. A good friend of mine is a HK IP lawyer and she never lost a patent case in China. I don’t practice anymore but it was an interesting job for almost 3 decades. I was responsible for intellectual property enforcement for 12 countries and I have photos to prove it including which lenses and film I used. Got to take advantage of all that trekking with some street photography. When I was a young lawyer I went to an INTA event and the keynote said it was important to register your rights. And I thought WTF kind of advice is this. Are American companies idiots? Well there you go. There’s nothing like wasting an hour with your client to learn they never bothered to register a simple design patent in China something that cost $1000 including costs and fees. We did that at cost just so there’ll be work in the future. Many Americans actually think a U.S. registered IP right gives them global protection.

DREW WILEY · Mar 30, 2023

The Business School of the University of Beijing is run as an adjunct of Cal State University Hayward; and a close friend is in charge of that program. My wife studied in Beijing for a year as an exchange student from UC Berkeley, prior to our marriage.
And with all my own insider knowledge, I can confidently state it was pretty much greedy US CEO's who outright demanded the tsunami of outsourced junk. I strongly turned the other direction, more and more, until the time I retired, relying on high-end German and Japanese manufacturers, since nearly all the former US manufacturers were now no more than labeling companies for bait and switch inferior imports. So our company, and our pro customers, were doing extremely well when all the cheapo mentalities were going broke during the last recession.

My argument was that educated pros needed better equipment than ever to stay ahead, and would be willing to pay for that. And I was right. But I'm sure glad to be retired and out of the rat race.

The pendulum is starting to swing back a little now, with pride in quality and integrity of brand slowly beginning to crawl out of its grave. But it takes a long time to glue Humpty Dumpty back together again once he's been pushed off the wall.

Sirius Glass · Mar 31, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
I would say that you can get there with a simple developing tank for black and white.....

But If you want you can also start with this here :

Beverly Hills said:
...aha...now I understand you, sorry Sirius Glass. You are of the opinium that a simple development can is not enough to start developing film?

.....there should be people who started with less !

But you'll surely be right. Maybe we could agree that we
recommend b&w film development to beginners first?

...by the way why do you need a lifting arm?

Look - here is a real nice Basic Set,......there are many others
avaible from different manufacturer's.

I don't remember anything about this from China. It doesn't
matter because who has to buy a fake starter set where the
lifting arm isn't included afterwards.....!

I do not limit myself to black & white film.

Beverly Hills · Mar 31, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I do not limit myself to black & white film.

Sure, of course I know this. But for beginners is b&w developement allways the first step!
BTW : a normal drum like above is also sufficient for c41 AND E6, but it is a little dificult, but possible!
A lift for drums to change the baths is luxury in my eyes !

Beverly Hills · Mar 31, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I do not limit myself to black & white film.

BTW : Rotation processor for c41 AND E6 made in China
......it's environmentally friendly, saves electricity...

DREW WILEY · Apr 1, 2023

Just gently roll a drum back and forth along the bed of your darkroom sink. It's that easy! Of course a semi-automated system is a lot more convenient. I have a couple very nice rotation machines, way more seriously built than anything Jobo offers. But in principle, color development in a drum can be done totally manually.

My drums fill and drain way faster than Jobo ones, even the big 30X40 inch ones. That's another advantage. No lift accessory needed. People come equipped with those beforehand; they're called arms.

JWMster · Sep 5, 2023

Fascinating. Just read this over. Loyalty to a piece of plastic junk is amazing and speaks to the real value Jobo has in putting together a system that offers many a first window into a systematic approach to processing film. I'm one, too, though I've always thought the whole of it was vastly over-priced. But let me add that I was happy to pay the price to end the misery of poor results... which it helped me do. In a way, community labs would have done the same thing, but my nearest is over an hour away at highway speed and the hours are horrible.

But the thing is with today's 3-D printing, the capital costs for serving a small niche have fallen dramatically, and Jobo's value just ain't what it used to be.... and that happened LONG BEFORE eTone knock-offs. Small manufacturers don't have the capital costs they used to, the inventory or raw materials costs either. But the fall in prospective sales volume as photographers moved to digital is what really accounts for Jobo's failure to see value in new innovations. So they didn't. And now the youngsters who couldn't afford Jobo prices for "meh" gear have come along and you see a series of competing products... but most of these are cottage productions... and recent enough that few here are familiar with them. Fewer still would stumble across these today because you just really really really have to seek it out.... almost as scarce as a Goodman camera. Bet few here are familiar with those either. But I think this is what film has become and in part why the younger generation approaches the hobby differently.

That's okay. I'm a cottage user, so I'm very pleased with the new innovations and yeah, I'd support Jobo over eTone any day. But I'm also beginning to look at dumping my Jobo. I'm not going to replace it with industrial grade stuff like Drew seems to have done (Bravo by the way), but some of the 3-D gear is simply better where I need better (than Jobo) and the rest... I just don't really need.... or at least I don't need any more 'cause now I hav a choice. And yes, I think I'm beginning to get repeatable results consistently without the footprint, cost, reel loading bugaboos and other things I just don't like about Jobo or find that it does particularly well. I love rotary processing, but my CPE2+ is too small in the parts I need and too big in the parts I don't. It was great... until it wasn't. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

Sirius Glass · Sep 5, 2023

JWMster said:
Fascinating. Just read this over. Loyalty to a piece of plastic junk is amazing and speaks to the real value Jobo has in putting together a system that offers many a first window into a systematic approach to processing film. I'm one, too, though I've always thought the whole of it was vastly over-priced. But let me add that I was happy to pay the price to end the misery of poor results... which it helped me do. In a way, community labs would have done the same thing, but my nearest is over an hour away at highway speed and the hours are horrible.

But the thing is with today's 3-D printing, the capital costs for serving a small niche have fallen dramatically, and Jobo's value just ain't what it used to be.... and that happened LONG BEFORE eTone knock-offs. Small manufacturers don't have the capital costs they used to, the inventory or raw materials costs either. But the fall in prospective sales volume as photographers moved to digital is what really accounts for Jobo's failure to see value in new innovations. So they didn't. And now the youngsters who couldn't afford Jobo prices for "meh" gear have come along and you see a series of competing products... but most of these are cottage productions... and recent enough that few here are familiar with them. Fewer still would stumble across these today because you just really really really have to seek it out.... almost as scarce as a Goodman camera. Bet few here are familiar with those either. But I think this is what film has become and in part why the younger generation approaches the hobby differently.

That's okay. I'm a cottage user, so I'm very pleased with the new innovations and yeah, I'd support Jobo over eTone any day. But I'm also beginning to look at dumping my Jobo. I'm not going to replace it with industrial grade stuff like Drew seems to have done (Bravo by the way), but some of the 3-D gear is simply better where I need better (than Jobo) and the rest... I just don't really need.... or at least I don't need any more 'cause now I hav a choice. And yes, I think I'm beginning to get repeatable results consistently without the footprint, cost, reel loading bugaboos and other things I just don't like about Jobo or find that it does particularly well. I love rotary processing, but my CPE2+ is too small in the parts I need and too big in the parts I don't. It was great... until it wasn't. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

Once I tried the Jobo system I was hooked and started using it for black & white film too. Well worth the cost for consistent development of all film formats.

logan2z · Sep 5, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Once I tried the Jobo system I was hooked and started using it for black & white film too. Well worth the cost for consistent development of all film formats.

I don't use their rotary processors, but I like the Jobo tanks/reels for hand inversion. The tanks don't leak and the reels are easy to load, IMO.

Rolleiflexible · Sep 5, 2023

logan2z said:
I don't use their rotary processors, but I like the Jobo tanks/reels for hand inversion. The tanks don't leak and the reels are easy to load, IMO.

I've always used JOBO tanks on Chromega rotary bases. They cost maybe $30 on eBay and do a fine job of turning JOBO tanks when developing B+W film.

mshchem · Sep 6, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
I've always used JOBO tanks on Chromega rotary bases. They cost maybe $30 on eBay and do a fine job of turning JOBO tanks when developing B+W film.

IIRC these have a bit of an eccentricity in the rollers that push the chemistry left and right as well as round and round.

BMbikerider · Sep 6, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
I found it on the net some weeks before. The seller is located in china. Perhaps there is a Joint Venture with JOBO?

If China is involved I would say they are what we call 'Knock Offs' in UK. China from what I have seen/heard of them have no qualms about of stealing other ideas and selling them as their own. It is such a vast country with little in the way of scruples and this will be a small operation for them and have little in the way of comeback.

Have JOBO's patents in the meantime expired or are we actually dealing with product pirates ?

Hassasin

Hassasin

Don_ih

Beverly Hills

Duceman

DREW WILEY

Beverly Hills

Duceman

DREW WILEY

Sirius Glass

Beverly Hills

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Beverly Hills

Beverly Hills

Rayt

DREW WILEY

Sirius Glass

Beverly Hills

Beverly Hills

DREW WILEY

JWMster

Sirius Glass

logan2z

Rolleiflexible

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mshchem

BMbikerider

Have JOBO's patents in the meantime expired or are we actually dealing with product pirates ?

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