Have JOBO's patents in the meantime expired or are we actually dealing with product pirates ?

BrianShaw · Mar 29, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
Well: I am an intellectual property litigator. Patents protect processes. Trademarks protect against confusion in the marketplace.

Hi Sanders. My understanding is that there are two types of patents: utility (process/function) and design (appearance), and trademark being word, phrase, symbol, design, or a combination of these things that identifies goods or services. But I thought "design" in the trademark definition is logo desing rather than product design. Will you please clarify so I don't go through the rest of my life with a misunderstanding? Trade dress makes sense but how is that formally protected in trademark registrations, for instance, or is it not? While I am not an IP attorney/barrister/litigator, I have had to consult with them throughout the bulk of my career for scientific/engineering publications. Always a challenge as ours were so conservative that their answer to almost any question was "don't".

JOBO - Johannes BockemÃ¼hl-Simon Trademark Registration

Trademark registration by Johannes BockemÃ¼hl-Simon for the trademark JOBO.

uspto.report

JOBO - Bockemuhl-simon, Johannes Trademark Registration

Trademark registration by Bockemuhl-simon, Johannes for the trademark JOBO.

uspto.report

And {moderator's deletion of what may be other poster's personal details - please do not disclose without consent} I'm sure that we could all learn a lot from you if you choose to give any additional insights. I actually have great respect for your credentials.

Don_ih · Mar 29, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
I'm amazed at how long my Jobo hand tank components have lasted without developing plastic fatigue or cracks.

I have a couple of Jobo 1000 hand-tanks and the plastic is much thicker than the 1500 rotary components. I like the reels a bit better, too, actually.

Don_ih · Mar 29, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
I'd take the case on a contingent fee.

Contact Jobo. They probably can't afford to hire a lawyer for this.

DREW WILEY · Mar 29, 2023

The thinness pertains to better heat transfer within a surrounding tempered water bath. But my own rotary drums do just the opposite, and use an expensive thick plastic (Noryl) known for excellent thermal insulating properties. The whole idea is to maintain the correct temp INSIDE the drum. Of course, that require a stronger gearmotor too, especially since I often work with drums large enough to handle 30X40 inch prints. With the Jobo hand inversion tanks, these sit in a large tray of correct temp water when not actually being agitated by inversion.

DREW WILEY · Mar 29, 2023

Contingency fee?? That wouldn't even be enough to buy you an airline ticket to China, let alone win a world war forcing them into patent compliance in another country. I've even known a number of persons whose own patents and logos were outright infringed in plain sight by WalMart and its import counterfeits in this country. The response: "Go ahead, sue us. We have a bigger legal department than your entire county, and you'll starve to death before even your grandchildren see a dime." And they weren't bluffing. Happens quite frequently, as outright internal policy in fact. One has to choose their stones very carefully if planning to go against Goliath.

EBay itself is flooded with counterfeit goods, and even has websites selling exclusively "hot"stolen goods. Yeah, they have a token monitoring system to try to curtail that kind of activity; but it's so pervasive and able to re-mutate itself that it's like Sisyphus trying to endlessly roll a huge ball back up a hill. Of course, lot of we camera and darkroom gear users tend to stick with trusted sources, and don't covet fake Gucci camera bags anyway.

Rolleiflexible · Mar 29, 2023

BrianShaw said:
But I thought "design" in the trademark definition is logo desing rather than product design. Will you please clarify so I don't go through the rest of my life with a misunderstanding? Trade dress makes sense but how is that formally protected in trademark registrations, for instance, or is it not?

Registration, in the United States, is not required for the Lanham Act to protect mark owners. Section 43(a) of the Act prohibits the sale of "any goods or services" that "is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive as to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods, services, or commercial activities by another person." If you can prove likelihood of consumer confusion, the statute applies. In fact, this thread shows that knowledgeable consumers (us) are confused as to the product's affiliation with Jobo. A good lawyer would probably offer it at trial as proof of the likelihood of confusion for the purposes of Section 43(a).

A trade dress claim asserts that the overall look and feel of a product or service is gauged to confuse consumers into inferring an association with the infringed product or service, without regard to the logos or names. This is a well-established facet of US trademark law under the Lanham Act. Thirty years ago, the Supreme Court found that a restaurant's look and feel could be protected as a trade dress infringement, without regard to the dissimilarity of the names. See Two Pesos, Inc. v. Taco Cabana, Inc., 505 U.S. 763 (1992).

I spent a decade litigating trademark infringement claims under the Lanham Act. It's scary how much of that stuff remains tattooed into my brain.

Don_ih · Mar 29, 2023

Nevertheless, numerous sellers on places like eBay all selling from China, with a manufacturer that would only be able to be tracked down with the cooperation of the Chinese government (known to be a bit reluctant), of a good that's generating probably thousands of dollars in sales a year (as opposed to a significant amount, like 100s of thousands in sales), of an item that could just have a different paint job and description and then no longer infringe on anything - I don't think Jobo needs a lawyer.

As of yet, no one is offering a $50 version of Jobo's Super 8 expert tank developing reel (that they sell for $1000, so I guess Jobo is ok for now.

Luckless · Mar 29, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
I don't know where you are located. But in the United States, this is about as close to a slam dunk as they come. I'd take the case on a contingent fee.

You have a weird definition of 'slam dunk' - A quick glance at B&H's website would offer ample counter arguments.

The physical tank design is no longer a protected element, and I can't see anything that would limit competitors from making fully functional and interchangeable clones.

Jobo branding is rather clearly a black tank with white text, while these clones show a comparably distinctive white and red branding on the tanks.

The black and high contrast orange/red combinations are rather obvious and easily argued functional elements distinct from branding, and are found on any number of long standing offerings in the market. Hell, the contrasting red isn't even a consistent element of Jobo's branding...

Duceman · Mar 29, 2023

Luckless said:
The black and high contrast orange/red combinations ... are found on any number of long standing offerings in the market. Hell, the contrasting red isn't even a consistent element of Jobo's branding...

And speaking of black and contrasting red combinations... may I introduce the Patterson tank....

Luckless · Mar 29, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
Your analysis is incomplete. If you want to hire me, I would be happy to educate you.

You're the one who claimed a 'slam dunk' with little to back it up. I'm just someone who could potentially sit on a jury for such a case and came up with counter points I would readily accept with a few seconds of googling.

I can't even buy your argument that this thread could be used as supporting evidence for Jobo's side, given that all the posts are about how the product is clearly -not- Jobo and consumers were able to spot that quickly.

mshchem · Mar 29, 2023

No one is really confused about these things. I would bet that China is Jobo's biggest customer.
China isn't swimming in 45 years worth of used Jobo equipment like the West.

summicron1 · Mar 29, 2023

You folk are missing the big picture here. Am I to believe there's actually enough demand for new darkroom gear that someone is willing to go to the trouble of making more? Even if it's fake or counterfeit?

Don_ih · Mar 29, 2023

summicron1 said:
Am I to believe there's actually enough demand for new darkroom gear that someone is willing to go to the trouble of making more?

Apparently.

Alex Benjamin · Mar 29, 2023

I think after this thread we will all agree that "legal matters" comes somewhere in between "politics" and "religion" as a discussion subject that has the potential of quickly becoming overheated...

summicron1 said:
Am I to believe there's actually enough demand for new darkroom gear that someone is willing to go to the trouble of making more?

Philosophy behind this is: build it and they will come.

summicron1 said:
Even if it's fake or counterfeit?

Philosophy behind this is: build it real cheap and you'll make money.

DREW WILEY · Mar 29, 2023

Rolleiflexible : you're offering two empty tacos. Every counterfeiter knows the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor. Same reason sardines and herring swim in huge schools, and bird in big flocks. A few get caught; most don't. I've been directly involved in going after egregious actors who impacted the legit company I worked for. The importers might get tagged, and some individuals were in fact sentenced to serious prison time; but the same types might just jump the country, and not be worth the effort to track down and send back. Same with the big theft rings these days - catch some, break them up, and another set just takes their place.

A couple of the recently busted rings here in CA had their own highly organized, computerized warehouses replete with millions of dollars of stolen or shoplifted inventory, and very legit looking websites, almost like mini Amazon fulfillment centers. One of the worst offenders I had to deal with had entire truckloads of expensive German tools heisted in transit. The had their own online presence replete with a picture of their authentic SF storefront. If you called them, they said they'd do you a favor and deliver the items to you in person more conveniently at a specific intersection of the Mission District of SF, with no doubt a buddy with a gun not far away. This went on for years, and there's absolutely no way the cops weren't perfectly aware of it, or even in on it. Plenty of hot camera gear was sold that way too.

BrianShaw · Mar 29, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Apparently.

Some of the “photographic knock-off” from China is actually very good quality, and reasonably priced. I’m not a fan of counterfeit goods but when items aren’t available anymore then the current offerings are even more valuable to me. And there are a lot being offered!

Beverly Hills · Mar 29, 2023

Rolleiflexible said:
This is a classic trademark infringement. The particular claim is not for an infringement of a logo, or trade name. Rather, it is an infringement of what is called “trade dress,” where a competitor copies the look and feel of a product in hopes of confusing buyers to assume that its product is somehow associated with the copied product.

Thanks, Rolleiflexible you got it : "trade dress" - this is
exactly my point ! Forgive me if I didn't make that very
clear. But you are the expert and not me.......,

"trade dress" ....yes folks the patents may be expired, and this might be a case of "passing off" - sure there is not a single
JOBO logo seen - where is still the problem with this
product? "What is about JOBO " I asked at the begining of this thread. Is JOBO informed about it? Is is a new cooperation? ( manufacturing in China with a joint venture that says there is a second product line with it's own name)
It still belongs also to JOBO : The new discount line?

"where a competitor copies the look........[....]...in hope of confusing buyers". ...thanks Rolleiflexible !

This is EXACTLY THE CASE HERE have a second look at it:

It is THE SAME CONSTRUCTION,
It is THE SAME DESIGN
It has THE SAME COLORS ( but colors are not patentable)
It has THE SAME FONT TYPE
AND it has THE SAME PRODUCT NAME :

1520/1530 Copy. vs. 1510/1520 Original

So that consumers can be subject to confusion and buy these copies in the beliefe that this is the new budget-, or possible the new premium product line from JOBO.

An exemplary case of product piracy - and that is illegal !

Sirius Glass · Mar 29, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Some of the “photographic knock-off” from China is actually very good quality, and reasonably priced. I’m not a fan of counterfeit goods but when items aren’t available anymore then the current offerings are even more valuable to me. And there are a lot being offered!

There are some well designed and well made Hasseblad lens hoods from China, but they do not claim to be made by Hasselblad.

Alex Benjamin · Mar 29, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
It is THE SAME CONSTRUCTION,
It is THE SAME DESIGN
It has THE SAME COLORS ( but colors are not patentable)
It has THE SAME FONT TYPE

Yes, but does JOBO put the "fun' back in "multifuntional" ?

Beverly Hills · Mar 29, 2023

Alex Benjamin said:
Yes, but does JOBO put the "fun' back in "multifuntional" ?

Alex - it isn't a question to us if we can identify this as a fake
JOBO copy!

I triet to explain that with the crocodil logo, and WHO comes home with a polo shirt with a dinosaur and is proud that their
new Lacoste shirt was significantly reduced??.....

I has to be of general importance not to counterfeit a product
and it's not about who is stupit enough to fall for it!

mshchem · Mar 30, 2023

THIS IS A TROLL TRYING TO GET PUBLICITY FOR A PRODUCT. I'M OUT

Hassasin · Mar 30, 2023

mshchem said:
THIS IS A TROLL TRYING TO GET PUBLICITY FOR A PRODUCT. I'M OUT

The product does not have much good to offer. That's been the case for years now. I don't see it as trying to get anything positive out of this, but maybe you're on to something.

JOBO continues to advertise all production is still based in Europe, no outsourcing for parts.

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

I can see your point mshchem : PRODUCTPLACEMENT !

But no - i really have no interest in making any product popular here .....beliefe me or beliefe me not ......!

How can I make it up to you now ? Will you be able to forgive me afterwards, so I get one last chance?......?

So let me try :

Hallo Guys and Dolls....

you are new and shot film ? It is a fascinating experience,
you can really belive me, i know what i'm talking about !

However - hand on heart, but do you want to immerse yourself in the truly breathtaking experience of a bygone era? So if you really want to belong you absolutely have
to develope your films yourselfs.

THE FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO IS DECIDE ON THE RIGHT DEVELOPEMENT CAN !

THIS DOES NOT HAVE TO COME FROM JOBO !

HERE ARE ALTERNATIVES, SOME ARE SLIGHTLY CHEAPER, SOME EVEN BETTER THAN JOBO PRODUCTS !

Beverly Hills · Mar 30, 2023

What else is a good alternative ?

Don_ih · Mar 30, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Some of the “photographic knock-off” from China is actually very good quality, and reasonably priced. I’m not a fan of counterfeit goods but when items aren’t available anymore then the current offerings are even more valuable to me. And there are a lot being offered!

I'd guess the quality on almost all these things is pretty close to the quality of the authentic article. Like I said earlier, the Jobo-copy stuff I have is fine. I got it a lot cheaper than it's being sold for now, though. And, at the time, I completely assumed Jobo was out of business (I got my Jobo stuff used - it was already over 20 years old).
Currently, though, the knock-off prices don't seem to be much cheaper than the genuine Jobo - so there's no real good reason to buy them.

Have JOBO's patents in the meantime expired or are we actually dealing with product pirates ?

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