Hasselblad SWC M problem

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Hi,

My name is Sophie and I'm goiing to buy a second-second hand Hasselblad SWC M, series nr. UR 141342, (lens nr. 5766677) and would like to ask you for advice.
I took a test picture with millimeter paper and am not shure if the camera works well.
It would be very nice, if you could give me an advice.

1. The corners of the picture i took from the milimeter paper at even, natural light (with the SWC M) turned very blue -is that normal?
2. and is it normal, that the picture gets less sharp in the very end of the corners?
The lines are also not 100% straight.
4. do you know anything about the series nr.? I think the camera is from 1978, when the SWC M first got produced. does that matter? Are the later SWC M's better?

5.What do you think about the price 3000$ for camera, viewer and one magazine?

Thank you very much in advance!

Best wishes from Beijing

Sophie
 
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bnstein

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1. Most likely vignetting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignetting)
2. the lines bending is a form of distortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_distortion), sharpness tends to fall off at the edges with most lenses. My recollection is that the lens with the SWC was very good and should show this to a small extent.
3. no. for more info see http://www.gilghitelman.com/news_0005.html http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00FXRm
4. These are always expensive cameras. Look at www.keh.com and ebay comparison. For this kind of money be certain there is warranty. I would also ask to take a couple of rolls of slide film before buying.

Although this camera is very highly regarded it is fairly specialised: I presume you know you really need/want this model camera
 

Paul Goutiere

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I have the older version, mfg. in 1959. None of the issues you present are obvious in my camera.
I would certainly have a tech examine the camera before purchasing.

To my mind these camera tend to be a little overpriced but if they are what you want they are really fantastic to use.
 

edtbjon

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Hi Sophie!
If you shot these test shots at full aperture (f/4.5), the issues of 1) and 2) could be acceptable. If you just stop down to f/5.6 and further, these issues should be all gone. Except maybe the "bent line" thing, which doesn't change much by stopping down. Now, that Biogon lens is known to be very well corrected for distorsion and even though it's not perfect, they used the SWC as a copy camera for copying blueprints etc at the Hasselblad factory in the -70'ies and -80'ies.
If you indeed tested the camera at different f/stops and you had these issues in the middle of the f/scale (f/8-f/11), I'd say the camera/lens needs to see a workshop for adjustment, which could cost quite a lot.
$3000 is a bit on the expensive side, but it all depends on in which shape the camera is. B.t.w. the camera is indeed from 1978. (The code 'VHPICTURES' translates into '1234567890'.)
There is really no optical difference in between different SWC cameras. They all use the same optical formula. The earlier SWC with chrome barrel lenses does have single coated lenses, while the later SWC with black barrel lenses had T* coating, which does handle flare better. (I got one of those.) The SWC/M and the 903 are streamlined into using the CF lens barrels with B60 filter bayonets. The 905 had a slight lens redesign with non-lead glass. (The 905 is said to perform about as good as, but not better than its predecessors. But this is nothing anyone but a hightech lab technician would be able to see in an MTF chart.) Zeiss and Hasselblad have continuously made small changes to the design of the inside baffling and the coating of the interior of the lens and housing to reduce flare. This is good, but is no make/brake point in choosing which camera to buy.
The plus points of the SWC/M is that there is no shortage of parts for the lens and shutter mechanics, where some parts for the earlier SWC (C type lenses) are running short. You can use B60 filters with the /M camera. Of course the camera is newer.
But again, I found a late SWC black T* "user camera" for about $1200, and I know that it performs the same as a new 905. That's good enough for me and I'm not afraid to use it as it's already quite worn.

//Björn
 
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bnstein
Thank you for your advice!
So do you think the vignetting and the distortion is normal for that model of the SWC or could it be that the SWC doesn't work right anymore because of age or bad treat etc.?
 

Q.G.

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B.t.w. the camera is indeed from 1978. [...]
The SWC/M and the 903 are streamlined into using the CF lens barrels with B60 filter bayonets.
Not quite.

The SWC/M came to be in 1980 (raised viewfinder, lowered tripod coupling plate, ratchet mechanism in wind crank - all to be able to fit Polaroid backs).

The CF lenses arrived in 1982.

So this camera, being from 1978, is not an original SWC/M (the factory supplied a kit, though, that would convert earlier cameras to "/M" status).
And it does not have a CF lens (that conversions was never offered. :wink: So only SWC/Ms from 1982 onward have a CF lens).

So it will have a Synchro Compur shutter (instead of the Prontor) and be in a "C"-style barrel.
It will take Series 63 drop-in filters, that are held in place by either a retaining ring or the lens shade.

Nothing wrong with that!

A propos distortion: it is very often heard said that the Biogon is distortion free. It isn't.
For a lens having an angle of view this wide, it indeed is very, very good.
But compared to, say, the 80 mm Planar standard lens, it's just a bit better. A 100 mm Planar is much better.

While true wide angle lenses like the Biogon have many things going for them, retrofocus lenses have a better, more even illumination of field.
At both the Biogon's widest aperture and stopped down to a middle aperture (f/8), the corners will be just about over 1 stop darker than the center.
A retrofocus lens will also be about 'that dark' in the corners, but when stopped down a bit, the fall-off proceeds at a slower pace out of the center, speeding up near the corners.
Longer lenses, like that 80 mm Planar standard lens again, also exhibit this fall-off, but improve much more quickly with stopping down.
 
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bnstein

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I would take Bjorns advice: shoot at a variety of stops and analyse. Given QGs information and the price tag I think I would shop around some more.
 

Sirius Glass

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Sometimes I will disagree with Q.G. on various subjects and opinions related to photography. However, when it comes to Hasselblads, the models and variations, you can take his opinions to the bank.

Steve
 
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Hi Q.G.

thanks for all the information!

could you also explain to me what the M and the CF lens means exactly. -and in what way it's worse to have a camera without CF lens and not a real SWC M? Sorry but i know very little so far, but getting better :smile:
do you think too, that the blue corners at a aperture of 5.6 are not normal? and regarding all these information and that this SWC M is a very early one, do you think the price for body, magazina and viewer for 3000$ is all right or too expansive?

Thanks

sophie
 
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and one more question!

i just took a picture of a room and the furniture which are quit close to the borders of the picture and closer to the camera are a little optically contorted.
is that normal?
 

Q.G.

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could you also explain to me what the M and the CF lens means exactly. -and in what way it's worse to have a camera without CF lens and not a real SWC M? Sorry but i know very little so far, but getting better :smile:
The "M" means Modified.

But first, perhaps, the SWC?
The original camera, introduced in 1954, was called Supreme Wide Angle, which was changed to Super Wide very shortly after.
In about 1959, the Super Wide was given the same barrel design and Synchro Compur shutter that the other Carl Zeiss lenses made for the 500 C were using.
The "C" stands for either Central shutter (a.k.a. leaf shutter) or Compur, "Super Wide" became SW, these things were put together, producing the name for the camera: SWC.

In 1980, the SWC was modified, and a "/M" was added to the name.
The modification involved raising the vierwfinder and lowering the tripod coupling plate, so that a Polaroid magazine would fit in between the two.
A polaroid magazine on the camera makes it impossible to wind the crank a full 360 degrees, so the modiciation also involved adding a ratchet mechanism to the crank, so that you can 'pump' the crank instead.

The factory also produced a kit at the same time, allowing any existing SWC cameras to be converted in the same way. The kit also contained a new name nadge, bearing the SWC/M designation.
So even if the serial number would suggest a pre-SWC/M production date, a camera can have the SWC/M name, plus the modifications that justify calling it an SWC/M.


"CF" is a designation used for lenses.
The "C" still stands for Central shutter, which these things still have.
The "F" stands for Focal plane shutter.
CF lenses (and the later CFi - i = improved - and CFE - E is electric - lenses) have a little button that allows to disable the shutter in the lens, providing the benefits of instant mirroro return when used on Hasselblad cameras that have a focal plane shutter.

CF lenses also have a different barrel design, with very much improved ergonomics.
The SWC/M was given the new barrel at the same time the other Hasselblad leaf shutter lenses were changed to CF. But obviously not the "F"-mode: you need to use the leaf shutter.
The CF designation was used anyway, to mark the other differences.
The camera's name however remained unchanged when this happened, and was still called SWC/M.

A SWC or SWC/M with C-lens (Synchro Compur and not-so-good-ergonomics) is still a very nice thing to use and have.

do you think too, that the blue corners at a aperture of 5.6 are not normal?
Hard to say without seeing them, and without knowing how the image was produced. Can you post a picture?
But generally: no. There is a good deal of natural (i.e. cannot be helped, and something all lenses have) light fall-off. But we usually do not notice it at all.
So yes, it is normal that there is some darkening. But no, it should not be that bad that it sticks out immediately.

One thing to think about first, though, is vignetting caused by a hood or filters.

regarding all these information and that this SWC M is a very early one, do you think the price for body, magazina and viewer for 3000$ is all right or too expansive?

Given that the SWC line started in 1959, the SW-line itself back in 1954, i wouldn't say your 1978 camera was a very early one. :wink:

But US$ 3,000 is indeed too much to pay.
You can even get very nice later models (i find the 903 the most desirable, followed by the SWC/M with CF lens) for considerably less than that.
So my advice would be to shop around a bit longer.

When doing so, also have a look at what viewfinder is on the camera. The later model (1985) is a more square type, the earlier one has a rounded funnel tapering towards the eyepiece.
The early cameras do have a bubble level on top, and the old style viewfinder has a prism on its side allowing you to see the bubble without having to move your eye (and the camera) much.
The newer finder has the bubble level incorporated, and it is visible through the viewfinder itself.
Because of that, later SWC/M bodies do not have a bubble level on top anymore. You will need a later style viewfinder with these if you want to have the benefit of the bubble level. (The newer finder is nicer to look through too, so it generaly is more (very) expensive, when you need to buy it separately).
 
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blue corners..

The "M" means Modified.

Can you post a picture?
But generally: no. There is a good deal of natural (i.e. cannot be helped, and something all lenses have) light fall-off. But we usually do not notice it at all.
So yes, it is normal that there is some darkening. But no, it should not be that bad that it sticks out immediately.
One thing to think about first, though, is vignetting caused by a hood or filters.


Thanks again for those great informations!
The vignetting is not caused by the hood or a filter. I have the picture but don't know how to post it in this blog.
 

bnstein

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and one more question!

i just took a picture of a room and the furniture which are quit close to the borders of the picture and closer to the camera are a little optically contorted.
is that normal?

1. some distortion in those positions is expected with a very wide-angle lens. See eg http://www.vanwalree.com/optics/distortion.html and also http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps basics lens design.html

2. from the other things you write I am concerned there is a problem with the camera and this is showing as more vignetting and possibly more distortion than you would normally expect from this very wide-angle lens
 

Frank Bunnik

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The price sounds ridiculous to me. Way too much. I bought a SWC black lens from 1969 about 3 years ago for 650 euro, including the finder, lenshood and an M12 magazine that came with the camera. That one was in great condition, working without any faults. I do realise that the price was very low but I bought it from an official camerashop who's owner was also the camera's owner.
 
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