Hasselblad Focus issues...again

Hi guys

I've posted here before about the focus troubles I'm having with my Hasselblad 501CM. The solution to the last thread I wrote was to get a 45 prism, which I got from FFordes. Slight improvement but not overwhelming and, as one user stated might be an issue, I didn't really like holding up the blad at eye level.

So I'm back trying to find a solution. I'm tired of wasting so many shots because although they look focussed through the WLF, but when I get the results, I find they are not quite as focussed as I'd like. It's expensive financially and photographically as I lose out on otherwise great shots.

So, I'm back at considering screens. I currently have the Acute Matte D screen, which I gather is apparently one of the best you can get. But it has no split image, or central focus circle, so, my judgement of focus is "does it look focussed?". I grew up with an Olympus OM10 manual focus camera and didn't have these issues because it has a central split circle that gets clearer as you focus.

I watched this video ( )

...and noticed the screen he is using is similar to what I have in my Olympus OM10; it has both the central circle and guidelines. So my first question is, what exactly is that called so that I can search for one? Because doing a search for "Hasselblad focus screen" brings up dozens of different types.

Secondly, I read some other forum posts where many people don't like the central circles claiming they are distracting. But moreover one would assume they are more accurate, but a user here (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/best-focusing-aid-p-magnifier-or-microp-screen.485245/) details a study where although people often think that, the reality is the standard screens usually achieve focus better. Well that is certainly not my experience but I'm interested to know your views? At the moment, when I'm photographing my kids (who are 5 and 8), focus is hard anyway due to their movement, but even with more staged efforts, I still find perhaps 50% of every roll are not focussed as I want, and I'm starting to give up on the issue, which would be a shame as I love my Blad and I wanted one since I was a kid. But the truth is, if I can't get at least most of my shots focussed as I want, I'm just going to keep resorting to my Nikon F5.

It may not be a screen issue; it may be the mirror angle. If APUGUser19 were here, he'd tell you to check the mirror pads to ensure they haven't worn.

If the mirror angle is wrong, what's in focus on the screen may not be in focus at the film plane.

Wouldn't hurt to have the camera checked by a knowledgeable Hasselblad tech.

I can’t help with you Blad -I’ve never owned one. I also learned on OM cameras with split circle/micro prism focus screens. I owned a Mamiya C330 TLR for a few years. This uses a WLF. Try as I might I missed sharp focus more often than not even with slow ponderous tripod shots. In the end I gave up and for MF I use a rangefinder which I find much easier. My eyesight is not particularly good and I wear glasses all the time for astigmatism and myopia -this may well be the issue in my case.

Do you normally wear glasses?
What diopter lens do you have in either of the two viewing systems.

Hi all...

The camera was professionally services about 14 months ago. Cost £250 if I recall by an engineer here in the UK. So I'm fairly sure it should be in tip top shape. And, some of the shots (about 50% on average) are in focus so I don't think it's the camera...I think it's my inability to use it properly.

I do wear glasses, Matt. And I usually use them with it but not always. My eye sight without glasses is reasonable...just good enough to drive legally without glasses, but only just. So I can get by OK without my glasses on but with them on, things are much clearer.

Diopter lens? None. What are they and how do I get one?

ted_smith said:

Diopter lens? None. What are they and how do I get one?

Click to expand...

Actually, you must have one, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use the 45 degree finder, and you would have no magnification in the waist level finder.
Whether the ones you have actually match your eyesight - that is the question.
See post number 4 on this thread for some interesting information: https://www.camera-info.com/threads/diopter-correction-on-45-degree-prism.8969/

OK, thanks Matt.

So I need 'a' correction lense for the WLF (and perhaps the prism) in a negative Dioptre (because I am shortsighted), between -4 to -1 I guess. But to find out which I need, I need to go to the optician it seems? Is that right? If so, what exactly do I ask for? And once I know which dioptre I need, do you know where to get one?

ted_smith said:

OK, thanks Matt.

So I need 'a' correction lense for the WLF (and perhaps the prism) in a negative Dioptre (because I am shortsighted), between -4 to -1 I guess. But to find out which I need, I need to go to the optician it seems? Is that right? If so, what exactly do I ask for? And once I know which dioptre I need, do you know where to get one?

Click to expand...

Start a separate thread with Hasselblad dioptre lens in the title.
Lots of Hasselblad users here. Many of them will have gone through the process, and will be able to give you hints.
And if you have a real camera store that you have dealt with, they might have someone there who can help.

Ted, have you checked the focus of the camera agaist a focus checker?

Barry Thornton explains about it in one of his books, but basically, it's a sheet of card with a thick central line and a few thinner lines at (say) 5mm intervals.

You place it at 45 degrees to the camera and focus on the central line. If the resulting image shows focus on another line, then you know these's a discrepancy between what you see on the viewfinder and whats really in focus.

An easy way to check dioptre is to go to Boots, try several reading glasses at the distance you need to work at and take note of the dioptre.

Mike

mpirie said:

Ted, have you checked the focus of the camera agaist a focus checker?

Barry Thornton explains about it in one of his books, but basically, it's a sheet of card with a thick central line and a few thinner lines at (say) 5mm intervals.

You place it at 45 degrees to the camera and focus on the central line. If the resulting image shows focus on another line, then you know these's a discrepancy between what you see on the viewfinder and whats really in focus.

An easy way to check dioptre is to go to Boots, try several reading glasses at the distance you need to work at and take note of the dioptre.

Mike

Click to expand...

The OP is short-sighted (myopic). That requires -diopter lenses for correction. Reading glasses are for presbyopia and are + diopters.

I inherited a 500C/M, with a hood and 45-degree prism. I could barely focus with either. I went and invested in the chimney finder, with a variable diopter. All my problems went away, and it's my favorite finder aside from what it did for focusing.

ted_smith said:

...
The camera was professionally services about 14 months ago. Cost £250 if I recall by an engineer here in the UK. ... some of the shots ... are in focus so I don't think it's the camera...I think it's my inability to use it properly.
...
My eye sight without glasses is reasonable...just good enough to drive legally without glasses ...

Click to expand...

Ok - I agree it's not a camera problem. I'm very nearsighted and have to switch between removing my glasses and putting them back on when switching between the waist level finder and the pop-up magnifier. If my vision were better, but not perfect, I could focus without glasses but I know I would not have precise focus.

What Michael said above - I purchased a chimney finder for my Mamiya TLR and it has completely saved my focus problems. It replaces the WLF but keeps the camera in the same position, just closer to your eye. It blocks out all extraneous light from hitting the focus screen, has a rubber eye cup as well and a flip up magnifier for critical focusing. I'll never go back. And as my eyes have gotten worse over the years and I don't want to wear glasses when focusing, I have just placed one of those close up diopter filters like you would screw onto the end of your lens for close-up photography. I just pick either the +1, +2, or +3 and lay it in the eye cup - works fine.

I sometimes use a Hasselblad hc-3/70 finder: it provides 4x magnification over the whole screen, has diopter adjustments, and is very inexpensive.

The screen at the start of the video is the standard plain screen with black painted cross hairs (42161), but when he is taking pictures, he probably has the pre-acute matte microprism with grid (42250), which is one of my favourite screens.

There are 2 main criteria to focusing a camera (not just Hasselblads). The most important is that you can see the screen sharply - not if the image is sharp on the screen, but that your eyes can focus on the screen. The default optics are designed to put the screen at between 1m to infinity. If you cannot see clearly in that range, then you need a dipoter adjustment on the optics to bring the screen's apparent distance to some point that you can focus your eyes clearly on. It does not matter what viewer you use, you must be able to see the screen clearly. The waist lever finder magnifier gives you one of the highest magnifications.

After that, you need to be able to determine sharp focus of the image. We'll assume that the camera is mechanically sound (no back focus).

Depending on what you grew up with, some people prefer matt screen, some prefer microprisms, and other prefer split-image. If you grew up on autofocus, then it'll take some time to learn how to determine sharp focus with any tool. Split image is easier to learn, but I find it more cumbersome to use. I grew up when microprisms were common, and I still find them faster to capture movement. But I shoot a lot using a matt screen. If you are into the fad of shooting wide open, quite often the subject will drift out of focus by the time the shutter opens, so your technique must be rigorous.

The old pre-acute matte screens are darker, but easier to determine sharp focus. The newer screens use prisms or micro-lenses to direct more light towards the eye (as opposed to a matt, which spreads light uniformly), but this defeats the matt mechanism that allows you to determine sharp focus. The focus aids (microprisms and split image prisms) solves this problem as you don't have to use the matt part. The downside is that the focus aid prisms are designed to work at certain F-stops and Focal lengths (Nikon use to sell different split image - microprism screens for telephotos, normal, wide and macro photography). Most split image prisms and microprisms focus aids black out by f/5.6~f/8.

Below is a list of Hasselblad screens part #s I've collected them over time from various people. When you are looking for a specific screen, they are usually labelled by these part number - just be aware that the part # is on the box, and the screen in the box may not be the one labelled (it was common practice to put your old screen in the box that the new screen came in). If you like using a focusing aid, the Acute Matte 42215 is the best, but it is also in most demand, and fetches a hansom price (~$400US last I checked!). I'm currently using a 42165 and an after market BriteScreen (split image/microprism collar) - which is almost as good as the 42215.

Hasselblad Focusing screens

Pre_Acute-Matte

Plain ----------------------------------------- 42161
Centre microprism ---------------------- 42234
Centre split image + microprism -- 42218
center microprism with grid --------- 42250
center split image ---------------------- 42188
center split image for C? ------------ 42196
center split image 1 ------------------- 42198
Bright-Matte (plain) -------------------- 42226 (just pre Acute-Matte)
Checked screen (Grid) --------------- 42269


Acute-Matte (Per Richard Nordin's Hasselblad System Compendium pgs. 188-189)

Original Acute Matte ( Introduced in 1989):
Acute Matte plain ------------------------------ 42165 ( Introduced in 1989 )
Acute Matte with split and grids code - 42170 ( 1991 to 1996 )
Acute Matte TCC Code --------------------- 42167
Acute Matte 203 Code ---------------------- 42208

The "D" versions 1996 and 1997:
Acute Matte Standard D ----------------------------------------------------------- 42204
Acute Matte D 203 ------------------------------------------------------------------- 42203 ( earlier code 42210 )
Acute Matte D 205 ------------------------------------------------------------------- 42167 ( earlier code 42213 )
Acute Matte D microprism/split image ---------------------------------------- 42215
Acute Matte D split w/ Grid lines ------------------------------------------------ 42217
Acute Matte D w/ metering circle for pme90 prism ----------------------- 42207
Acute Matte D w/ grid and split image with metering circle for 203 - 42219
Acute Matte D w/ microprism/split image with CFV crop --------------- 42264

Theo Sulphate said:

It may not be a screen issue; it may be the mirror angle. If APUGUser19 were here, he'd tell you to check the mirror pads to ensure they haven't worn.

If the mirror angle is wrong, what's in focus on the screen may not be in focus at the film plane.

Wouldn't hurt to have the camera checked by a knowledgeable Hasselblad tech.

Click to expand...

I had that trouble with mine when it first arrived. The mirror was slightly out of adjustment. Looked spot on in the finder...I sent it for an overhaul in NJ (all seals, mainspring etc) came back and all that trouble was gone. If that's not it as my old eyes have been ravaged by surgery, detachments I often use the magnifier for my 4x5 as an improv chimney finder. First time I tried that I was stunned at how infocus something could be.

You need to have a Hasselblad technician put the body on a jig and have the body squared up. Anything else will be a WOMBAT [Waste Of Money, Brains And Time]

ted_smith said:

Hi guys

I've posted here before about the focus troubles I'm having with my Hasselblad 501CM. The solution to the last thread I wrote was to get a 45 prism, which I got from FFordes. Slight improvement but not overwhelming and, as one user stated might be an issue, I didn't really like holding up the blad at eye level.

So I'm back trying to find a solution. I'm tired of wasting so many shots because although they look focussed through the WLF, but when I get the results, I find they are not quite as focussed as I'd like. It's expensive financially and photographically as I lose out on otherwise great shots.

So, I'm back at considering screens. I currently have the Acute Matte D screen, which I gather is apparently one of the best you can get. But it has no split image, or central focus circle, so, my judgement of focus is "does it look focussed?". I grew up with an Olympus OM10 manual focus camera and didn't have these issues because it has a central split circle that gets clearer as you focus.

I watched this video ( )

...and noticed the screen he is using is similar to what I have in my Olympus OM10; it has both the central circle and guidelines. So my first question is, what exactly is that called so that I can search for one? Because doing a search for "Hasselblad focus screen" brings up dozens of different types.

Secondly, I read some other forum posts where many people don't like the central circles claiming they are distracting. But moreover one would assume they are more accurate, but a user here (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/best-focusing-aid-p-magnifier-or-microp-screen.485245/) details a study where although people often think that, the reality is the standard screens usually achieve focus better. Well that is certainly not my experience but I'm interested to know your views? At the moment, when I'm photographing my kids (who are 5 and 8), focus is hard anyway due to their movement, but even with more staged efforts, I still find perhaps 50% of every roll are not focussed as I want, and I'm starting to give up on the issue, which would be a shame as I love my Blad and I wanted one since I was a kid. But the truth is, if I can't get at least most of my shots focussed as I want, I'm just going to keep resorting to my Nikon F5.

Click to expand...

the split-image screen fixed the problem for me but for kids ,there is nothing better than an auto-focus SLR.

so how much did you pay for the focus screen?

obviouslygene said:

so how much did you pay for the focus screen?

Click to expand...

My acute matte-d with split image was €230 on ebay about a year ago.

Beside that I use a -3 diopter in the waist level finder or I use the chimney finder.
All my focusing problems solved

Regards,
Frank

itsdoable: many thanks for taking the time to find and provide all that information about the screens! I appreciate it.

There is much mention of these "chimney finders" by several folks

Can you give me a link or a part number for such an item so I know what to look for? They sound promising.

Is it one of these, called a "turret finder" : http://ffordes.com/product/16022310545651
and one of these : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exc-Hasse...547405?hash=item1c9425284d:g:MQwAAOSwwN5ZfEeA

I agree with all of those who have suggested the chimney finder. The second link you provided is the one I use, though I think that's a little pricey

Yes, the ebay link is a "chimney finder".

The chimney finder will certainly do the best job at giving you the highest contrast view of the screen, which should help with your problem. I mostly use a 45 deg prism, with screens that are either have the split prism or the micro-prism area. IMHO the focus aid screens are essential, but I've never used an acute matte screen.

Sgore said:

I agree with all of those who have suggested the chimney finder. The second link you provided is the one I use, though I think that's a little pricey

Click to expand...

Indeed it is pricey, as the OP is UK based he could look at this:
https://www.camleyphotographic.com/...fying-hood-w-dioptre-42013-condition-7e-6435/
for cheap and cheerful or here:
https://www.cameramuseum.uk/pre-owned-hasselblad-accessories
for a more cosmetically pleasing piece
No connection to the dealers commercially

However if the 45 prism hasn't helped I really don't think the chimney will.
I think we are short of more information from the OP, are we talking close up at open apertures where even a body sway will push the focus out? Are we talking perhaps not focus error but shake? (The OP says "not quite focused as I would like" does that mean some areas are in sharp focus but not the "right ones" which points to a mechanical issue or just generally not sharp?) The OP is new to MF which is a different beast than his F5, is he shooting at 1/60th and expecting sharp pictures of his children (presumably in the 10ft to 20ft range) hand held perhaps? If so getting 50% in focus is good going!!
I think a real test, not real world pictures, is called for, a tripod or firm support, focus on a target, move the focus off and re-focus, are you hitting the same mark ie are you consistent, run a test roll at high shutter speed, on a tripod preferably, with mirror up before shutter release on a target, which is preferably not a 5 year old child, one that remains stationary for longer than a nano second, shoot the same target hand held and compare. I suspect this will show a combination of shutter speed and technique in holding is the cause no screen swop magic is going to fix that, if I was to shoot the 5 and 8 year old, unless they were asleep I'd be reaching for the F5 first.

+1 on trying a screen with split image, in particular if your body and back have been serviced recently.