Hasselblad 503 CXi Pre Release Problem

[loki]

I have a problem with my 503CXi. When i press the pre - release the shutter does not close. I made a short vid. http://www.sutev.at/hasselblad/Hasselblad.3gp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqIRLjlG7tk
Is there anything i could do about that ? Is this a Lens or a Body Problem ?

 

[Q.G.]

Could you change the format of the video to something more common, or/and upload it to YouTube perhaps?

Not having seen the video, i think it is still safe to say that either body or lens, or both need to be serviced or repaired. Simply because it's behaviour that should not occur.

Yet, maybe you have set a CF/CFi/CFE lens to F-mode?

 

[loki]

Lens is not set To F-mode
video is now on youtube 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqIRLjlG7tk

I bought this cam recently on the bay. So should I send it back or would it be affordable to send it to a service ?

 

[Q.G.]

Seen it now, thanks.

Could be either the body or the lens.

The thing this works is that the key in the body's lens mount rotates for a set number of degrees and then stops.
That key is connected to the shutter by an axle, the slotted end of which you see when you take the lens off.
The shutter is set to go "all the way" with the key controlling how far it actually can go for each step in the release cycle.

What happens in your camera is that the process is halted just before the shutter and aperture get to the point that they close.
So either the camera's key angle is not right and needs adjusting. Or the lens itself (or rather the connecting axle in it) is just out of proper alignment and needs readjusting. You can test which if you have another lens and see how it works with that.

It's not a major repair, but requires that the camera's chassis, bearing all the working bits, comes out of the shell, and a fair deal of know-how, or else more terrible things can happen when the chassis is out of the shell. So a job for a qualified repair person.

 

[loki]

I only have this lens. Does this mean that the shutter also doesnt work in Normal Mode or only in the Pre release mode ?

 

[Q.G.]

It probably will work (though i can't be sure) in normal mode.

You can test (sort of) by firing the shutter while looking through the rear, and see what happens, in what sequence. The important bit is that you don't see the shutter and aperture close and then go open and shut again. The thingies in the lens need to be closed when the rear shutter doors open.
So if you only see the shutter open and close, with the aperture closed as far as it should be (test at 1 second with the aperture set to f/22), things may be o.k.

But it's hard to see what really happens while the rear doors are opening. If that opening happens while the shutter in the lens and aperture are still closing, you're in trouble...

 

[loki]

When i test it at 1s with f/22. I can see the aperture close (befor or at least in the same moment as the rear doors are opening/which happens quite fast) and after 1s the shutter closes.

One thing i might add in the vid i used f/2,8 so the aperture was not visible .. if i would use f/22 and pre-release mode the rear door would open and the aperture would close ( to 22 ) and it would stay like that until i press the "normal" release button.

 

[Q.G.]

If you see the aperture close, the film will also. That's not good. Not good at all.

The aperture should be at the position set, the shutter should be closed, (a fraction of a second) before the rear doors begin to open. Both when using prerelease and when pressing the shutter button 'normally'.

So i'm afraid you will have to have this seen to and put right again.

 

[loki]

well i dont really see the aperture close . i see that it has closed to the set position (e.g. f/22) (but i dont see it actually closing/moving).
But i cant say if the shutter is closing befor the rear door opens. I think i might have seen something but it must been really fast then.

well i made a quick vid again. maybee that helps.

only youtube this time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQxDM6iAcc

So, should i send it back ? what would repair cost ? ..

BTW thanks for the info/help

 

[Q.G.]

Hard to tell, but still: from your last video, i'd say that it works o.k. like that.

I understand correctly that you just bought this camera? If so, i would certainly return it, or have the seller fix it at his expense.
Even if it works o.k. without prerelease, there still is that prerelease problem.

I don't know how myuch fixing it would cost. For that, talking to a repair person, explaining what's wrong, and seeing if they use fixed fees, and if so what they are, would be the thing to do.

 

[loki]

I bought it over the bay. but the seller is located in the Netherlands. I think i have to work something out.

So, if its "only" the prerelease, what cold be the reason for this problem ?

 

[Q.G.]

The thing i mentioned before: either the camera's key angle needs to be adjusted, or the thing in the lens is out of proper alignment.
Without another lens to check, both camera and lens have to be checked. Though i don't know how much that costs, i know it will be quite a bit. Very often a repair is as expensive as, or even more expensive than another used body or lens.

 

[John Koehrer]

I believe QG's correct that the rear shutter and lens shutter are out of time. The lens shutter should be completely closed before the rear shutter opens.
The sequence is:1)release button pressed, 2)lens shutter closes, 3)rear shutter opens and lens shutter makes exposure, 4)rear curtain closes when shutter button is released.
What you are not seeing, but should, is the shutter closing before it releases.
You can test the lens by removing it from the camera and releasing it. The release is a small pin in a semi circular tube next to the cocking axle. just press it sideways not inward. You should see actions 2&3 above.
If I remember correctly, the timing for this is controlled by the gear in the shutter but it has been far too long since I've worked on these. I think that if it was the cocking shaft that you wouldn't be able to mount the lens without damage.

 

[Q.G.]

[...] What you are not seeing, but should, is the shutter closing before it releases.

Not when looking through the rear.
In fact, if you do, you know for sure that something is wrong.

You can test the lens by removing it from the camera and releasing it. The release is a small pin in a semi circular tube next to the cocking axle. just press it sideways not inward.

Sometimes you need to help the shutter a bit more, starting it by 'manipulating'/prodding the slotted axle. (But never rotate the thing more that a fraction of a degree. Just prod.)

You will of course ony see the second part of you number 3.

If I remember correctly, the timing for this is controlled by the gear in the shutter but it has been far too long since I've worked on these. I think that if it was the cocking shaft that you wouldn't be able to mount the lens without damage.

Nope.
The camera controls the timing of the release cycle (the only timing it does not is that of how long the shutter in the lens opens). Which you can tell when you release the shutter with the lens off the camera: everything happens at once.
The axle is not just a cocking shaft. It is the control mechanism that synchronizes camera and lens.
You can mount a lens without damage because there is that little catch you mentioned above that will keep the axle from rotating, and because camera and lens must be/are 'synchronized' when you do. No problem.

 

[loki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmflKM6Fb2E (f/2.8 so aperture is not visible)

I tried to fire the lens "manually". I just hat to push the release pin to the side. But again i couldn't see the shutter close, open and close again. It just closes once after the exposure time is over and stays closed then.

But i have read that you normally shouldnt try to "fire" the lens this way..

So i guess the problem is the lense

 

[Q.G.]

There is no problem firing a lens this way. No worries.
As long as you don't wind the lens the wrong direction.

Yes, the video shows a problem with the shutter, and the prerelease thing will be because of the lens too.

 

[loki]

The seller offers me compensation or repair refund so i think i get the estimated repair cost and have it repaired.

I guess that this behavior will lead to exposure problems eaven in "normal" mode. The shorter the exposure time the bigger the problem.

for the lens "firing" i just remeber this statment i found on youtube (might be true or not)

qwilco:
This is DESTRUCTIVE for your lens. The pin is not a release button, but a Holding-Lever. When on a camera, this pin is pushed away after the tension of the cocking ax of the lens is taken over by the ax of the camera. The pin called Latch 065 turns on a tiny brass srew, which get loose or brake when used as a release button. Wilco Jansen 40 year experience in Hasselblad repair in the Netherlands.
-> Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHD1qOXSxQw

 

[Q.G.]

That's grossly overstating things.

The camera pushes the pin out of the way every time a lens is mounted on it. That tiny brass screw doesn't seem to mind that.
The full tension is on that tiny little catch and that tiny little screw any time a lens is not on a camera. If that would be bad, DESTRUCTIVE even, many people would need to have their lenses fixed awfully often.

But yes, what the camera then also does is keep the axle from rotating by the key in the lens mount. There's nothing stopping that happening when you push the pin yourself. So the axle spins freely. Not something to worry about.
When you do push the pin and release the axle, the pin will be just out of the way when that thing starts to spin. Now you could say that this means that there is a danger that it will rub and break. But on the other hand, if it hadn't gone out of the way far enough, the axle would still be held by it.

So no worries. Really not.
And besides: how often are you planning to do this?