Hasselblad 220 Backs (A24): Seen any for good prices? Good Shape?

cayenne · Apr 20, 2022

Hi all,

Well, with the possibility that Cinestill will start producing a 220 color film soon, I got to thinking I might like to shoot some of this in my Hassy since it is a changeable back.

I have a couple cameras like the Yashica Mat 124 and the Fuji GWS690III that could shoot 220, the rest of my MF cameras have the little red windows in the back that would potentially allow the film to fog since as I understand it, the middle of 220 film doesn't have paper.

So, having NO idea about Hassy backs other than the A12 120 backs....any suggestions for what a good price on 220 Hassy backs would be?

Aside from eBay and maybe KEH, any good hidden places out there that you might know of that could have a couple of these hidden treasures?

I was thinking now would be the time to get 1-2 of them....before Cinestill starts putting out 220 film and maybe even potential others if it catches on again.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thank you in advance,

cayenne

MattKing · Apr 20, 2022

Cinestill seems to be mostly buying movie film stock and re-purposing it.
To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any movie film stock that can be re-purposed into 220 (or 120).

cayenne · Apr 20, 2022

MattKing said:
Cinestill seems to be mostly buying movie film stock and re-purposing it.
To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any movie film stock that can be re-purposed into 220 (or 120).

Well, it appears the fundraiser campaign for the 35mm, 120mm, 220mm and 4x5 film is over:
Cinestill 400D Campaign

But yes, you're right as far as where they started and likely still do most of their film....it is the Kodak Vision 3 motion picture film...both tungsten and daylight balanced stocks, with the remjet layers already removed before exposure.

I too am not sure where/how they do it, but they do produce already a number of 120 MF versions of all their films.

Cinestill 800T in 120 format

Cinestill 50D in 120 format

This "new stock" as mentioned was coming out for sure in 35mm and 120mm. But they also hit some funding goals and with that apparently are bringing out 4x5 sheet film in this "new" stock...and they were trying for one more funding goal to come out with 220.

I don't know if they hit the last goal, but the response was so high, I'm guessing even if they didn't for the campaign, they will come out with it later, maybe even later this year.

I've heard one Chinese company puts out 220 film.

I was just thinking if I could get a Hassy 220 back for cheap, in good shape...why not get 1-2 of them and if/when this film comes out, I'd be ready.

cayenne

Sirius Glass · Apr 20, 2022

I only have 120 film backs, but one can use the same methods I used for buying 220 film backs. I look at the photographs, check that the numbers match and the condition. Then buy assuming that it will need seals and adjusting. When I receive the back I take it to my Hasselblad repairman and he checks it out. He will do minor adjustments such as spacing at no charge and charge if it needs new light seals. Of course if the back needs more than that, I pick it up later and pay for it. If you are buying from KEH, you can check the spacing yourself and have them make any necessary adjustments and change the light seals if necessary.

Alan9940 · Apr 20, 2022

cayenne said:
I've heard one Chinese company puts out 220 film.

Shanghai GP3 220 (available on eBay today, if you're interested)

MattKing · Apr 20, 2022

cayenne said:
I've heard one Chinese company puts out 220 film.

It isn't the film that has been the problem, it is the leader and trailer backing paper, the ink on it, interaction between emulsion, paper and ink, and being able to assemble all that with reliable high quality at a commercially reasonable cost in appropriate volumes.
The film itself is just double length 120 film, with different edge printing.

Jeremy Mudd · Apr 21, 2022

MattKing said:
It isn't the film that has been the problem, it is the leader and trailer backing paper, the ink on it, interaction between emulsion, paper and ink, and being able to assemble all that with reliable high quality at a commercially reasonable cost in appropriate volumes.
The film itself is just double length 120 film, with different edge printing.

Yep!

I have several 220 backs for my different systems and have been shooting 220 old-stock for a while now, here and there, when I pull a roll out of the freezer. I haven't purchased any Shanghai 220 because of my bad experience with Catlabs 80 (rebadged Shanghai) in 120 where they didn't tape the film to the paper leader and it nearly broke my A12 back when it accordioned up into a mess and jammed the back. From what I can tell I'm not the first one to have such a problem with Shanghai products.

I backed the 220 Cinestill 400 film but it looks like they only hit 92% on that goal. I'm really hoping they bend a little bit and decide to offer it anyway. Otherwise it looks like I am getting 10 rolls of 120 instead.

Jeremy

flavio81 · Apr 21, 2022

cayenne said:
I too am not sure where/how they do it, but they do produce already a number of 120 MF versions of all their films.

Most likely, they just buy 65mm movie film, slit it, and convert it to 120 or 220.

flavio81 · Apr 21, 2022

Jeremy Mudd said:
Yep!

I have several 220 backs for my different systems and have been shooting 220 old-stock for a while now,

Yep, me too. I have Portra 400NC, 400VC, and Reala in 220 format.

Sirius Glass · Apr 21, 2022

flavio81 said:
Yep, me too. I have Portra 400NC, 400VC, and Reala in 220 format.

A really smart and happy camper.

grat · Apr 21, 2022

flavio81 said:
Most likely, they just buy 65mm movie film, slit it, and convert it to 120 or 220.

That makes sense, but then how are they producing 4x5 for 400D?

Jeremy Mudd · Apr 21, 2022

flavio81 said:
Yep, me too. I have Portra 400NC, 400VC, and Reala in 220 format.

Yes! 400NC and 400VC as well. Also picked up a bunch of 320 Tri-X in 220 for a project.

The 220 Hasselblad back I have is an all black one which doesn't match my black/chrome 500cm. I didn't like that at first but now I like that its so easy to tell which one is the 220 back visually now.

Jeremy

flavio81 · Apr 21, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
A really smart and happy camper.

But how can I be a smart camper, since i don't own any Hassy?!?!

Jokes aside, the Bronica ETR (si) 220 backs are also useful because, with careful use and test, they can be converted into 120 backs that allow 16 exposures per roll instead of the regular 15 exposures per roll afforded by the normal 120 backs.

Tiny font size on purpose.

Jeremy Mudd · Apr 21, 2022

Just received this update from Cinestill via email regarding the 220:

"220 Stretch Goal - Our goal with adding 220 as a stretch at the end of the campaign was to gauge the demand for this format and see if this was something the community truly wanted. While we came up short of our goal, we had just over 550 backers for 400D in 220! However, this makes up around 5% of the total backers. We set this stretch goal in a way that allowed us to work to create 220 film at a scale that would be appropriate for the market and viable for us as a business. That said, we’ve heard a lot of the feedback from the community about 220 and so CineStill is going to assess the possibility of still moving forward with 220 as a potential limited release product. The challenge now would be to see if we can produce 220 film at a much smaller scale than we originally found viable. We can’t promise we’ll succeed, but we said if we don’t see this being possible by December, we’ll be giving all those that backed double the amount of rolls they ordered, but in 120 format. Expect more updates on this once we get through Early Bird fulfillment and initial production for the rest of the film."

Marcelo Paniagua · Apr 21, 2022

Seems not much demand, lot of hassle to accoplish and they are preparing a safe escape route (giving double the 120 to supporters). Not good odds.

By the way, still got 220 backs for my Bronica ETRS and Mamiya RB67 so if they are produced I'm ready. Also, C330 and Kiev6s takes 220 so most likely would use it on those too. Not actively looking for 220 but they come around I suppose they would be nice for say, a field trip.

Sirius Glass · Apr 21, 2022

flavio81 said:
But how can I be a smart camper, since i don't own any Hassy?!?!

Jokes aside, the Bronica ETR (si) 220 backs are also useful because, with careful use and test, they can be converted into 120 backs that allow 16 exposures per roll instead of the regular 15 exposures per roll afforded by the normal 120 backs.

Tiny font size on purpose.

The advantage of MF SLRs have interchangeable backs.

Jeremy Mudd · Apr 22, 2022

Marcelo Paniagua said:
Seems not much demand, lot of hassle to accoplish and they are preparing a safe escape route (giving double the 120 to supporters). Not good odds.

Agreed.

I certainly am not qualified to tell them how to run their business, but my opinion is that the 220 offer was really late in the game and they only gave it a week. - which affected its commitment.

I think if they were really trying to get a true measure of 220 demand potential, they would have run it along side the 120 offer the entire time.

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people who bought in on the 120 early on, that also own cameras/backs that can use 220, and do shoot it on occasion when they get it or drag it out of the freezer. For those people, if they had already committed to the 120 buy-in, they may have been financially limited in regards to ALSO ordering the 220. Not me, but I'm a DINK that has no problem putting money against my hobbies.

For many film shooters, budget is a real concern, and they wouldn't buy-in on both for a kickstarter or speculation situation - at least that's what I'd guess with the huge amount of bitching about film prices increasing this year, and the number of people claiming they can't shoot film anymore because its so expensive.

Jeremy

Marcelo Paniagua · Apr 22, 2022

Yes, agree Jeremy. Most likely they wanted to measure possible demand. I may be wrong but making 220 isn't something you can just do in the last moment. My guest is that investment return would be slow. Probably demand would be high at first (novelty factor) but would slow down considerably. Surely hope I'm wrong.

Lets remember that 220 was, even on the age of film age, a niche product. Not sure if I will use it much even if it gets released. I intend to purchase some Shangai 220 on my next film purchase but not much, since normally I focus on finishing a roll fast. 220 would make sense IF the film was one that I grealy favor and IF I was a situation that may produce lots of images and want to reduce my luggage, like a hiking trip.

Jeremy Mudd · Apr 22, 2022

Marcelo Paniagua said:
Yes, agree Jeremy. Most likely they wanted to measure possible demand. I may be wrong but making 220 isn't something you can just do in the last moment. My guest is that investment return would be slow. Probably demand would be high at first (novelty factor) but would slow down considerably. Surely hope I'm wrong.

Lets remember that 220 was, even on the age of film age, a niche product. Not sure if I will use it much even if it gets released. I intend to purchase some Shangai 220 on my next film purchase but not much, since normally I focus on finishing a roll fast. 220 would make sense IF the film was one that I grealy favor and IF I was a situation that may produce lots of images and want to reduce my luggage, like a hiking trip.

Agreed on the demand being low compared to 120 in general.

One scenario that could play out here is that if the group of MF film wedding shooters that shot Fuji Pro 400H are looking for a good 400 speed color alternative other than Portra and begin to gravitate toward the Cinestill 400. If that's the case, I could see them using 220 since it was so popular with wedding photographers back in the day. I think that's a bigger market than the general recreational user.

(damn that was a lot of speculation there )

Jeremy

Marcelo Paniagua · Apr 22, 2022

Jeremy Mudd said:
(damn that was a lot of speculation there )

Jeremy

Isn't this the norm on this forum?

AnselMortensen · Apr 22, 2022

I'm in for the 400D 4x5 film, and I also went in on the 220.
I'm disappointed they gave up at 92% with it being such a narrow window of opportunity...

Jeremy Mudd · Apr 22, 2022

AnselMortensen said:
I'm in for the 400D 4x5 film, and I also went in on the 220.
I'm disappointed they gave up at 92% with it being such a narrow window of opportunity...

If one is to believe the 92% figure, that means that they only needed another 50 or so backers to hit the # of backers needed. That's only 250 rolls short at worst-case scenario (if you assume 5 rolls each instead of 2 for the lesser commitment).

Jeremy

flavio81 · Apr 22, 2022

Marcelo Paniagua said:
Yes, agree Jeremy. Most likely they wanted to measure possible demand. I may be wrong but making 220 isn't something you can just do in the last moment. My guest is that investment return would be slow. Probably demand would be high at first (novelty factor) but would slow down considerably. Surely hope I'm wrong.

Lets remember that 220 was, even on the age of film age, a niche product. Not sure if I will use it much even if it gets released. I intend to purchase some Shangai 220 on my next film purchase but not much, since normally I focus on finishing a roll fast. 220 would make sense IF the film was one that I grealy favor and IF I was a situation that may produce lots of images and want to reduce my luggage, like a hiking trip.

Yes, but on the other hand it seems to have been launched with big fanfare. I mean, the first 6x7 Pentax was named "Pentax 220"; there's the "Linhof 220", a stunning camera; how about the mamiya C220 being named because of the use of 220 film? I guess it was intended to replace 220. I think there were even some cameras that took ONLY 220 film.

Marcelo Paniagua · Apr 22, 2022

Got it. I find curious that, although Pentax 6x7 and Linhof 220 where professional cameras, the C220 was an amateur one. Find this odd.

MattKing · Apr 22, 2022

Marcelo Paniagua said:
Got it. I find curious that, although Pentax 6x7 and Linhof 220 where professional cameras, the C220 was an amateur one. Find this odd.

The C220 probably didn't get its name from the film format - it replaced the C22, it was mostly contemporary with the C330 (which replaced the C33), and both the C220 and C330 could use 220 film.
The C22 couldn't use 220. Apparently there were some late 220 modified versions of the C33 made.

Hasselblad 220 Backs (A24): Seen any for good prices? Good Shape?

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