Has anyone tried UV blocking inks?

[vasya1945]

I discovered that there are several brands that produce UV-opaque ink for screen printing. What are your thoughts on this? Has anyone tried?

 

[koraks]

There's a brief thread about it here: https://groups.io/g/carbon/topic/92646030
No actual work was presented in that direction. What I took from is is that it's basically overkill.
I also expect that linearization will be challenging due to the blocking power, which in combination with 8-bit tonal depth will result in massive posterization because you end up using only a small part of the density range that's available to you.
Overall it seems that the normal carbon pigments of e.g. Epson printers (and 3rd party inks) have more than enough blocking power for even demanding printing processes.

 

[nmp]

I discovered that there are several brands that produce UV-opaque ink for screen printing. What are your thoughts on this? Has anyone tried?

I strongly considered for my Epson 1430 that is sitting around un-initiated. But then I figured out how to max out the ink density on my P400 using QTRip and Pictorico that works well enough for salt prints which is a good torture test. So the 1430 rabbit hole stays covered up for now....

:Niranjan.

 

[revdoc]

I've read that it's possible to dilute the UV inks so they can be used more effectively. (There are inkjet carrier solutions for this exact purpose.) That would allow multiple channels of different UV blocking. In theory, it sounds feasible. Testing would be needed.

 

[vasya1945]

inkjet carrier solutions

I don't think I can figure out what is used in my printer. And not sure where to get those. But maybe it is possible to add, say, 25% of uv-ink to regular third-party ink and print with that?

 

[revdoc]

I don't think I can figure out what is used in my printer. And not sure where to get those. But maybe it is possible to add, say, 25% of uv-ink to regular third-party ink and print with that?

This is the sort of thing I was talking about:

Universal Dye Ink Base Solution - Clear Transparent - Use in DYE printer ink cartridges

bchtechnologies.com

There are other brands; this is just the first one I found in Google.

But yes, I don't see why you couldn't try using a third-party ink instead. You really just need the right mix of solvents. The main complication is that UV inks are usually dyes, and might not work in a pigment printer.

 

[vasya1945]

and might not work in a pigment printer.

Are you aware of any details? As far as I could google pigment nozzles are bigger, so they should not be clogged. Usually people warn against the opposite - pigment ink in dye heads. Though some cooling issues may occur(I have Canon which heats ink). I see that some uv inks are rated for Canon so maybe they have appropiate cooling parameters. At worst I might kill the pigment head, but I don't use it anyway. That's all I was able to find about that. It seems some people had used dyes in pigment heads but information is scarce.

 

[koraks]

Though some cooling issues may occur(I have Canon which heats ink). I see that some uv inks are rated for Canon so maybe they have appropiate cooling parameters.

Relevant parameters are mostly the viscosity of the ink and surface tension. Ink being heated probably relates to temporarily modifying viscosity to optimize droplet formation (making the ink thinner/flowing easier) while the droplet will exhibit less bleed (due to higher viscosity) once it hits the paper as it will have cooled by then. This is one of those areas where in my mind it makes sense to just rely on faith in the competence of an ink / ink base manufacturer to get these parameters right. I don't expect there would be a problem necessarily when using dyes in a pigment printer as long as the mechanical properties of the ink are otherwise in the ballpark. Might be worth a try.

 

[nmp]

Are you aware of any details? As far as I could google pigment nozzles are bigger, so they should not be clogged. Usually people warn against the opposite - pigment ink in dye heads. Though some cooling issues may occur(I have Canon which heats ink). I see that some uv inks are rated for Canon so maybe they have appropiate cooling parameters. At worst I might kill the pigment head, but I don't use it anyway. That's all I was able to find about that. It seems some people had used dyes in pigment heads but information is scarce.

I would talk to inkjetmall people. They make a UV ink called UV45. Should be able to tell you if it is compatible with your Canon and how to go about doing it.

:Niranjan.

 

[vasya1945]

Speaking of Epsons, if you use them maybe you can answer my concerns.
1) I am looking at inexpensive dye model XP-970. Is there any source of good inks for Epson in EU? It looks to me that inks are local and I see no familiar brands here.
2) This printer has only one black cartridge. Do Epsons generally allow to print bw ising black ink only? The issue with my Canon printer is that it can't print bw without coloured ink and under uv light it creates non-monotone curve.

 

[koraks]

1) I am looking at inexpensive dye model XP-970. Is there any source of good inks for Epson in EU? It looks to me that inks are local and I see no familiar brands here.

I've looked for pigment inks for my Epson in the EU, but found only rather sketchy offerings. I het my (3rd party) ink from the US and just accept the added cost. It's till way cheaper than official Epson carts.

Do Epsons generally allow to print bw ising black ink only?

The pro printers generally have several black channels; e.g. my old 3880 has 3 blacks, with the deepest black being either a photo/gloss or a matte black, depending on paper type selected.
A single black channel will create a much less smooth greyscale.
It's possible (even likely) that a printer and its drivers will add C, M and/or Y to greyscales in small amounts.

Your printer doesn't sound optimal for digital negatives. To be frank, I find my 3880 with its 3 black channels still not optimal...

 

[vasya1945]

Your printer doesn't sound optimal for digital negatives. To be frank, I find my 3880 with its 3 black channels still not optimal.

I know, but my feelings mixed. I am looking at three chemistry types right now - classic cyanotype, cuprotype and VDB. With cyanotypes and cuprotypes I won't be able to get good tones on the print. Cuprotypes might not work at all with my materials. Cyanotypes work with what I already have. For these two I don't think investing in a good printer makes sense. With test prints of VDB I get a feeling that the chemicals themselves are more capable but it is not clear whether I can realise that potential. So I would accept some loss of quality because of printer. And I am not doing any serious photography. So I am reluctant to spend 1k for a good pro printer (and more on ink?). Entry level ones might be around 100eur used so It won't be a big loss . I only need it to print reasonably neutral greys. My Canon adds to much cyan that is visible even with a naked eye. But maybe all cheap models are like this.

my old 3880 has 3 blacks

What ink do you use? Is it some special ink whick you have to buy abroad?

Edit: And also is there any budget-friendly transparencies source? Something cheaper tha Pictorico (for 2-3euro per sheet I'd rather go with gelating silver printing).

 

[koraks]

I wouldn't worry about the colors in the negative as long as you get sufficient density and a decent greyscale (after linearization).

What ink do you use?

ConeColor, transitioning to InkOwl. But these are the pigment inks for my printer. I can't recommend anything for your dye-based printer.

Edit: And also is there any budget-friendly transparencies source?

Transparanten (Sheets / Film) - zeefdruksupply

 

[vasya1945]

I wouldn't worry about the colors

This is actually a big problem for me, colors appear only in a certain range of greys and they make the curve not monotone. It is not just not linear, it is not monotone. That is printer thinks he makes darker grey but under uv light it turns out lighter (and lighter on actual VDB print). Not easy to linearize. Curve has to have a hump in narrow range of values. It just so happens that built in paper profiles interact with my transparencies in this way. Density is barely enough, without much margin. Higher Dmax could help by pushing this hump out of actual working range (this happens in cyanotypes because they use 1/4 or even 1/5 of the range) but that's just my guess.
Density is an issue for cuprotypes but there are some complilcations apart from that. InkOwl has UV-opaque ink so if I go the pigment Epson route I would also order it just out of curiosity. The question is whether I can get something cheaper than 800eur P700, maybe something used. Dye-based XP-970 looks like a gamble to me. I can only hope that it's profiles, InkOwl dye ink and my transparencies will interact in a good way.
And one more question, is your pigment ink sticking to transparencies and photo paper? Because my Canon has pigment head for text and its ink only adheres to office paper.

 

[koraks]

Ah I see what you mean now. Yes, it's indeed a problem if you get fluctuating density.

Is there no way to use only the pigment black channel? The Epson driver I have for my old printer has such a black only function. The image quality is mediocre at best because only a single channel is used, but it's worth a shot.

is your pigment ink sticking to transparencies and photo paper

Yeah, sure. Inkjet materials (paper and transparencies) have a top layer that absorbs the liquid. On e.g. Pictorico it's the milky white layer that becomes sticky if you touch it with a wet finger.

Because my Canon has pigment head for text and it only adheres to office paper.

That's really odd. All pigment inks I've used so far readily soak into any kind of inkjet-compatible media.

 

[vasya1945]

Is there no way to use only the pigment black channel? The Epson driver I have for my old printer has such a black only function. The image quality is mediocre at best because only a single channel is used, but it's worth a shot.

I think not. It only works with plain paper, it is supposed to be used for text. With native pigment ink it does not have enough density and this ink does not stick well to transparencies. It also does not have enough density. My initial plan was to put UV ink there but it is likely to not work. Pigment head does not work with dye ink(I tried it) and UV ink somewhat dye based. My bet would be that InkOwl UV-ink (rated for Canon) was not ever tested in pigment head, this text-only head is quite rudimentary. And indeed image quality is mediocre.
There is also photo-black channel but it cannot be used alone.
I still can check different profile and ohp combinations, maybe additionaly colorize the negaitve. This might work but it is tedious and room for manoeuvre is limited. It might remove curve hump at the expense of overall VDB print quality. Cuprotypes won't work (too low density) but I can live with just one type of brown prints.
I'm thinking of another printer. But which one, r3800 p700(or their predecessors)? And how bad is clogging in Epson. My Canon is ok, I think I once left it for three months and color heads were not clogged.

 

[koraks]

The only thing I can think of is try and print a yellow negative. Yellow dye and pigment generally do a fairly OK job at blocking UV and you may get somewhere with this. Maximum density will still be limited, however, based on the blocking power I get with my pigment yellow ink. It's better than nothing, still.

I can't say much useful on buying a printer; I've had my Epson for years, so haven't checked the market much lately. I bought it second hand back then, probably some 8 years ago.

And how bad is clogging in Epson.

In mine, it varies. But usually one or two channels show some clogging symptoms if the printer has sat for a few weeks without printing. A few months...count on a lot of clogging. I just run cleaning cycles until the problem goes away. Usually, a single cycle is sufficient. Repeated cycles may be necessary after very long periods of sitting around unused.
At one point I did disassemble the printer partly to manually clean the capping station and power cleaning subsystem; after about a decade of use, it had clogged more or less entirely, making power cleaning cycles ineffective. I also bought a tool for resetting the maintenance cartridge. Combined with the 3rd party inks, I don't worry about the cost of the cleaning cycles anymore; some ink is wasted, but so what. I waste a lot more paper in the darkroom to make a presentable print. Inkjet has overhead, too. So be it.