Has anyone ever mixed developers?

Kirks518 · Dec 25, 2014

I was reading something last night, and it made me wonder if anyone has ever combined more than one developer for a roll. I'm thinking about doing it just as an experiment, and see what happens. I'm thinking of maybe developing for 1/2 the required time for developer A, then dump, and develop for 1/2 the time for developer B. Or maybe even do a 1:1 mix of two different developers and develop for the average between the two times.

Anyone ever do it? Or thought of doing it?

polyglot · Dec 25, 2014

Rodinal plus Xtol seems to be a popular (as far as such craziness is concerned) option. People make all sorts of claims as to obtaining the good properties (speed from Xtol, highlight separation from Rodinal) from both developers but I've not seen rigorous densitometry to support that conclusion.

cliveh · Dec 25, 2014

Why would you want to do that?

Kirks518 · Dec 25, 2014

cliveh said:
Why would you want to do that?

I knew that would be one of the first responses...

Answer - Because I can.

jim appleyard · Dec 25, 2014

You're not the only one! Here's the link for xtol/rodinal. http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

I've also heard of folks who have added some HC-110 syrup to a mixtue of rodinal. If you search our friends at photo.net, you may find it. I think the mix was 10ml of HC to 1:50 mix of rodinal???

Sirius Glass · Dec 25, 2014

To use someone else's name "Frankly No"

snapguy · Dec 25, 2014

olde

In them olden days some folks used to develop by inspection -- you develop the film to what you think is halfway and then look at it briefly using a dim green safelight -- and if the film looked very undeveloped they might change to a more vigorous developer. Thus they used two developers with one piece of film. I think the problem with mixing two and using them together is measuring the percentages exactly. Can't see it is worth it. But I am not sure 35mm is anything more than a temporary fad, either.

Newt_on_Swings · Dec 25, 2014

Played with it out of necessity once in the darkroom. Developing some sheets of ortho litho film in some old xtol stock when it started to die. Added in a splash of d76. Worked alright and the image came out.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 25, 2014

Kirks518 said:
I was reading something last night, and it made me wonder if anyone has ever combined more than one developer for a roll. I'm thinking about doing it just as an experiment, and see what happens. I'm thinking of maybe developing for 1/2 the required time for developer A, then dump, and develop for 1/2 the time for developer B. Or maybe even do a 1:1 mix of two different developers and develop for the average between the two times.

Anyone ever do it? Or thought of doing it?

This comes up once in a while but be warned.formulating a good developer is critical business.Just combiningtwo developers as in mixing themcreates totally unpredictable results;as an experiment?why not?as a suggestion and hoping for the best of both worlds?;no way.I'd rather start with a bulk chemistry formula and make minor tweaks to optimize one or another more predictble property and that is tricky enough.formulating develpers should be left to the once who know precisely what they are doing.the rest of us is better oftaking pictures and refining our trchniquethan playing with the ghosts we can't get rid off after we called them.enjoyyour experimentand report.

bdial · Dec 25, 2014

Jananian mixes Ansco 130 and Caffinal which he mixes from scratch. He has been working with that combination for some time, and probably spent a lot of time getting there.

I have experimented with a two bath method using Xtol first, and a short run in dilute Rodinal. What I remember of the result was that the film had dense highlights. It wasn't a rigorous test though, and I've not pursued it since.

There are a zillion ways to develop film, and broadly speaking they will all get you to the same result. The differences can be very subtle, but sometimes subtle is where you need to be. It all depends on what suites your taste.

There is fertile ground for experimentation, take careful notes and let us know what you find out.

Gerald C Koch · Dec 25, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
This comes up once in a while but be warned.formulating a good developer is critical business.Just combiningtwo developers as in mixing themcreates totally unpredictable results;as an experiment?why not?as a suggestion and hoping for the best of both worlds?;no way.I'd rather start with a bulk chemistry formula and make minor tweaks to optimize one or another more predictble property and that is tricky enough.formulating develpers should be left to the once who know precisely what they are doing.the rest of us is better oftaking pictures and refining our trchniquethan playing with the ghosts we can't get rid off after we called them.enjoyyour experimentand report.

Ditto

May I also add that while it seems an attractive idea of mixing two developers and getting the best of both, in reality you may get the worst of both. If you think about it when you mix developers A and B then B will throw off the chemistry of A and vice versa. Different pH, bromide content, etc. The two chemists that developed Xtol spent a year in exhaustive work before they even had something to show Kodak. Unless you are familiar with how developers are formulated you are really working blind. If you have time to spare then go out and take some pictures. What you propose is chemistry and not photography.

Sirius Glass · Dec 25, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Ditto

May I also add that while it seems an attractive idea of mixing two developers and getting the best of both, in reality you may get the worst of both. If you think about it when you mix developers A and B then B will throw off the chemistry of A and vice versa. Different pH, bromide content, etc. The two chemists that developed Xtol spent a year in exhaustive work before they even had something to show Kodak. Unless you are familiar with how developers are formulated you are really working blind. If you have time to spare then go out and take some pictures. What you propose is chemistry and not photography.

To reinforce what Gerald said, "What makes you think that you are smarter than a photochemist and leads you to believe that you can do a better job by randomly mixing and matching liquids that you have lying around?"

Photo Engineer · Dec 25, 2014

Having designed developers for commercial sale and use, I can agree with what Gerry said.

This is not an easy task. But, if you find something that works, share us, otherwise, tell us what it cost you in lost pix or quality or money!

PE

Sirius Glass · Dec 25, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Having designed developers for commercial sale and use, I can agree with what Gerry said.

This is not an easy task. But, if you find something that works, share us, otherwise, tell us what it cost you in lost pix or quality or money!

PE

Ok, a little more tactfully stated than I did.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 25, 2014

I just stick to D76.For me it works well with any filmI've tried but I'd wish for more acutance with Tmax films.Still, for me. itis the best all-purpose developer.

Vaughn · Dec 25, 2014

I think using two developers falls right in place with practices like two-bath developers, water baths, stand development and other assorted tweaks to the 'normal' methods. I just try not to make things too complicated for myself!

Vaughn

Sirius Glass · Dec 26, 2014

There a a number of excellent two bath developers. Some developers can be used as a two bath developer.

Rollo Pyro comes as two chemicals which are diluted and mixed, however as a two part developer the film is immersed in part A for seven minutes, then part A is poured off and saved.

The film is them immersed in part B for five minutes during which time part B activates the absorbed part A. The development continues until part A in the film is depleted. The part B is poured off and discarded.

Now the old part A is added back to the tank and the old part A acts as a tanning agent. After two minutes part A is poured off.

The film is washed for several minutes and then TF-4 or TF-5 hypo fixes the film.

What is accomplished is that the developer is used as designed, the development is not temperature-time dependent and the film gains proportional tanning based on the initial light exposure.

Note that this is not two chemicals randomly thrown together rather the two parts of the developer used as a two bath developer.

Vaughn · Dec 26, 2014

I have used Rollo Pyro, but only as a single bath. Interesting to hear about its two-bath use, thanks.

Using two different developers -- with a good water rinse(s) in between, one might be able to control (repeatable, too) development in interesting and helpful ways. Sort of like Selectol-Soft and Dektol in silver gelatin printing as a two-bath developer. Something like that might be nice with x-ray film where contrast control is tricky, and one can use a red safe light and develop by inspection. But I would see this as more practical if one needed a unique way to handle a light situation to match ones printing method or look. Modern films and developers probably would do an easier and better job the rest (98% ?) of the time.

Kevin Harding · Dec 26, 2014

I quite regularly use a mix of Rodinal and HC-110; I haven't noticed any significant issues, but it may be that the amounts that I use (1ml of HC-110, 4ml of Rodinal, for 30 mins. 30s of inversions at first, then two or three inversions at 10, 20, and 25 minutes) aren't enough of one or the other to throw it off significantly. In any event, I tend to be quite happy with the outcome.

I'm tempted to mix in some HC-110 to my Pyrocat HD, but what I like about the HC-110 (smoothness of grain) will actually not improve the Pyrocat at all.

NB23 · Dec 26, 2014

Please get back to us when you'll find the recipe for a developer that fixes at the same time.
Mixing 2 developers is absolutely no different than a plain single developer. A bunch of ingredients mixed together.

People can't analyze their own negs properly. They won't see any difference with mixed developers.

Xmas · Dec 26, 2014

NB23 said:
Please get back to us when you'll find the recipe for a developer that fixes at the same time.
Mixing 2 developers is absolutely no different than a plain single developer. A bunch of ingredients mixed together.

People can't analyze their own negs properly. They won't see any difference with mixed developers.

Ilford did Monophen...
Lots of people 'improved' D76...
http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devD76_variants.htm
Mixing two liquids is not repeatable when the manufacturing process of one or both can be altered, eg when the patent holder finds a cheaper supplier, or if either alters after opening.

Trask · Dec 26, 2014

Kevin Harding said:
I quite regularly use a mix of Rodinal and HC-110; I haven't noticed any significant issues, but it may be that the amounts that I use (1ml of HC-110, 4ml of Rodinal, for 30 mins. 30s of inversions at first, then two or three inversions at 10, 20, and 25 minutes) aren't enough of one or the other to throw it off significantly. In any event, I tend to be quite happy with the outcome.

I'm tempted to mix in some HC-110 to my Pyrocat HD, but what I like about the HC-110 (smoothness of grain) will actually not improve the Pyrocat at all.

Thanks for the recipe -- you put the Rodinal and HC-110 in what volume of water? Got any scans you can share to show the results?

eddie · Dec 26, 2014

If there were any advantage to mixing different developers, the PE's of the world would have come up with them long ago. They're the people familiar with the individual chemical components, and would foresee the effects prior to experimenting.
That being said, I think playing with our materials is part of the fun, so go for it, but don't expect to come up with anything to top what years of R&D have already given us.

Neal · Dec 26, 2014

I accidentally used Dektol as a stop bath once.

Neal Wydra

Gerald C Koch · Dec 26, 2014

Kevin Harding said:
I quite regularly use a mix of Rodinal and HC-110; I haven't noticed any significant issues, but it may be that the amounts that I use (1ml of HC-110, 4ml of Rodinal, for 30 mins. 30s of inversions at first, then two or three inversions at 10, 20, and 25 minutes) aren't enough of one or the other to throw it off significantly. In any event, I tend to be quite happy with the outcome.

I'm tempted to mix in some HC-110 to my Pyrocat HD, but what I like about the HC-110 (smoothness of grain) will actually not improve the Pyrocat at all.

What do you hope to achieve from mixing developers. finer grain, better contrast? Anything you could mention could be obtained by using an appropriately chosen single developer. Any experiment must have a particular purpose. Without one it is merely playing.

Too many people on APUG seem to think that experimenting is fun. Performing a well designed series of experiments is time consuming, tedious, often unrewarding and just plain hard work. In order to evaluate a particular mixture you would need at the very minimum a densitometer, a step wedge and/or standard test strips plus many hours and rolls of film.

The history of photography is full of people who attempted to find a mystical portion known only to them. The classic example was Harry Champlin author of the unintentionally funny Champlin On Fine Grain. Dr Edmud Lowe who founded Edwal and designed many of their developers said upon reading the book "It was like reading a children's story where the dragon Grain is tracked to its layer and smothered in clouds of nickel ammonium sulfate." Not understanding chemistry did not deter Harry.

The web is full of poorly tested and usually bad developer recipes. Do we need any more?

Has anyone ever mixed developers?

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency