Harman Technology plans for site redevelopment

NJH · Mar 30, 2016

Chris Livsey said:
I think the NIMBY objection is to any housing on the site not to an actual number, If I was cynical I would expect 350 to be rejected on appeal then 250 approved on a subsequent appeal if they splash some more cash, the refusal grounds are a bit thin IMHO:

http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/...ejects_Ilford_homes_proposal_for_second_time/

Oh dear, from that article "The committee also had reservations about the amount of money being put forward by the developers to pay for the education structure in the village, citing that the numbers of pupils would increase by 25 per cent.". I have personal experience along that line, I bought a new house in a similar size development in a small town in Dorset. The developer I have heard gave several £m to the council in the deal which was supposed to go towards funding a new school, something locals have been campaigning on for years. The council then claimed that pupil numbers were OK and therefore the money was subsumed into their budget from whence it has disappeared aka spent. Now I hear that there is pressure on pupil places again and we did indeed really need a new school just as locals have been saying for many years but there is no money. One can imagine just how angry some people are over all this development shambles but from what I have heard, in my area, it is pretty much all down to the council and planners.

RobC · Mar 30, 2016

Chris Livsey said:
I am not looking to have any influence I am commenting on publicly available information, I would try the "final whistle" comment on the Ferrania thread, would you suggest no more posts until the film is actually in hand?

I'm suggesting there could be a lot of pointless speculation since we have no further useful information than we had when the thread went quiet in Feb.
If you want speculation then go back and read whole topic todate.

Roger Cole · Mar 31, 2016

mr rusty said:
It's a bit complicated because there are 2 applications running side by side.

the original included I think 350 houses. Turned down by Cheshire East (local) council - now being appealed at national level
application #2 for 290 houses just turned down by local council - may get appealed separately.

It's all politics. The local councillors rely on local votes, and hence don't want to upset the local residents who tend to have a very local view of what should or should not happen. For some reason in the UK a vociferous minority usually appear who are against all development, usually overlooking that development usually brings increased local amenities (shops etc).

Time will tell, but it's a "brown field" site and government policy is to build more houses, so my guess is that eventually government will override local decisions, and the local councillors will be able to say "don't blame us - wasn't our decision". Cynical? Moi?

Some things are the same everywhere, it seems. That is, the details (legal process, name of governing bodies etc.) vary but human nature comes out, and is the same everywhere.

The words may be different but I've heard the same song in the US, pretty much.

RobC said:
I'm suggesting there could be a lot of pointless speculation since we have no further useful information than we had when the thread went quiet in Feb.
If you want speculation then go back and read whole topic to date.

But we do have some substantive information, or maybe I missed it and it was posted above - we know the original 350 is on appeal and a counter proposal of 290 houses was denied and may be appealed separately, presumably if the appeal of the 350 house proposal is denied.

RattyMouse · Mar 31, 2016

RobC said:
I'm suggesting there could be a lot of pointless speculation since we have no further useful information than we had when the thread went quiet in Feb.
If you want speculation then go back and read whole topic todate.

You are free to leave this thread if you dont wish to be polluted by "pointless speculation".

Chris Livsey · Mar 31, 2016

RobC said:
I'm suggesting there could be a lot of pointless speculation since we have no further useful information than we had when the thread went quiet in Feb.
If you want speculation then go back and read whole topic todate.

There are large, very large, areas of APUG that consist of "pointless speculation" and little else, if you are going to start going around pointing that out then good luck with making any difference at all.
The useful information posted here since February is what has re-ignited the thread, posters are very concerned/interested in the future of Harman and are following the twists and turns, that the thread has been quiet since February until the breaking news this week should be applauded.
I have read, and contributed I hope usefully, to the whole topic, much of what I read there is factual, there is naturally speculation as the future course of events is unknown and whilst sitting on one's hands until the "final whistle" is an option given the verbosity of the posters here, myself included, that is just wishful thinking, sit back and enjoy the ride or disembark if this makes you uncomfortable or unhappy. There are many threads I have quietly left to their own devices, I don't feel the need to lambast the posters with my reasons for leaving, they are obviously content, APUG is a broad, largely tolerant church, can we keep it that way?

pdeeh · Mar 31, 2016

Perhaps if our US cousines promise Trump they'll vote for him, he can be persuaded to build a golf course round the Harman factory ... he's never had much of a problem with UK planning in the past has he?

RobC · Mar 31, 2016

pdeeh said:
Perhaps if our US cousines promise Trump they'll vote for him, he can be persuaded to build a golf course round the Harman factory ... he's never had much of a problem with UK planning in the past has he?

smart thinking. Just how big is the B&W film and paper constituency in the US?

Sal Santamaura · Mar 31, 2016

RobC said:
...Just how big is the B&W film and paper constituency in the US?

It's apparently HARMAN's largest market for Ilford products.

RobC · Mar 31, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
It's apparently HARMAN's largest market for Ilford products.

yeah but that could miniscule as far as a politicians constituency is concerned. But I suppose every little helps.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 31, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
It's apparently HARMAN's largest market for Ilford products.

RobC said:
yeah but that could miniscule as far as a politicians constituency is concerned. But I suppose every little helps.

I posted that as a simple informative answer, not realizing that it would perpetuate this foray into politics, which APUG rules ban outside the Soapbox. My apologies to everyone for being an enabler.

RobC · Mar 31, 2016

we're just trying to get every little bit of help for Ilford plans to succeed. If planning politics is out then everyone better shut up about council planning applications which are nothing if not political. So I have Sals support on cutting out the speculation on the planning application.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 31, 2016

RobC said:
we're just trying to get every little bit of help for Ilford plans to succeed...

HARMAN is a mere tenant in the redevelopment under discussion. "We" can neither help nor hurt it.

RobC said:
...So I have Sals support on cutting out the speculation on the planning application...

I've been following the applications and appeal solely as an aid to determining whether, at the end of its lease in another nine years, HARMAN is likely to shut down or continue operations. If the former, I'll stock up on Ilford sensitized products a bit before the end. This thread is fundamentally based upon facts. Speculation holds no interest for me. If there were nothing but speculation in this thread, I'd not be participating in it.

Certainly, there are numerous other factors beside losing its site lease that could bring HARMAN's production to a partial or complete halt. Among them are changes in sales volume and/or material availability and desires / business goals of the company's owner. Nonetheless, tracking this process appears to me, at least in the short term, as the best way to gain insight about HARMAN's future.

DREW WILEY · Mar 31, 2016

I'd imagine that Ilford's market for monochrome products will be very strong for some time to come, since there aren't many players left. But whether
communities will tolerate true industrial development is a different question. This town has kicked out every heavy industry except one, and those same building have ironically been filled with major pharmaceutical and tech manufacturers that might be working with even nastier chemicals. But
geeks happen to be politically correct at the moment.

Roger Cole · Apr 1, 2016

pdeeh said:
Perhaps if our US cousines promise Trump they'll vote for him, he can be persuaded to build a golf course round the Harman factory ... he's never had much of a problem with UK planning in the past has he?

Ok, so if political jabs aren't allowed (and I understand) I'll just edit this to say nope. Still not going to do it.

mr rusty · Apr 1, 2016

determining whether, at the end of its lease in another nine years, HARMAN is likely to shut down or continue operations

Let's be realistic. The outcome of the present situation is interesting, but I expect whatever happens, as long as Harman has a profitable business they will exist. The plans involve moving all the kit from the old buildings to a new purpose built unit on the same site. The reasonably local area has many, many industrial sites where an appropriately sized building could be leased. I'm sure they would rather stay on the same site, but a move is a move whether 200 yards or 5 miles, only the logistics change a bit. Stop worrying - shoot film.

Chris Livsey · Apr 1, 2016

Indeed the current production coating machine, No 14, was moved to the site from the South of England, 1983 I think, and not built on the Mobberley site originally.
I don't recall seeing if the plans were to move the current machine again or to downsize with a new machine where smaller runs could perhaps allow more flexibility in production.

Photo Engineer · Apr 1, 2016

You must remember that the value of Harman products must equal or exceed the value of the land the plant sits on.

PE

Chris Livsey · Apr 1, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
You must remember that the value of Harman products must equal or exceed the value of the land the plant sits on.

PE

Exactly, they currently employ 200 staff (approx) down from 1,500 (approx) at one time on the site, the present building occupancy reflects that downscaling but the fixed costs of the buildings are as they were, that requires action.

Chris Livsey · Jun 1, 2016

The decision on the appeal of the refusal of the first application is due on (or before) 15/7/16.
https://acp.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/ViewDocument.aspx?fileid=15991349

DREW WILEY · Jun 2, 2016

Things are starting to touch a nerve. Just yesterday one of my machinery customers was lamenting about certain US corporations suddenly going down the drain after surviving 75 years in business and apparently still doing well, then reemerging with new ownership in China along with nearly worthless bait and switch import products. How does it happen? I could cite multiple specific instances. But in each case, the CEO was some jerk who
figured out how to grab his bonus by burning the house down. In other words, make the earnings reports show a sudden dramatic spike in profit due
to his leadership, but actually based on closing factories and warehouses and selling off the land itself. Slightly later he'll gets his multimillion
dollar golden parachute just to get rid of him before things go even worse, while the company itself either goes into bankruptcy or has to sell cheap to vulture capitalism. Scorched earth. Good for the boss, bad for everyone else. Hope that doesn't happen to Harman, and I have no inside clue about this; but there's not a lot little folk like us can do if it does happen.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 3, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
...closing factories and warehouses and selling off the land itself...Hope that doesn't happen to Harman, and I have no inside clue about this...

Just in case anyone new to the situation reads that and gets concerned, be advised that Drew really has no clue about this.

HARMAN doesn't own the land; it's a tenant. There remains the better part of a decade on HARMAN's site lease. If the landlord's appeal is denied, HARMAN can just keep operating the way it has been for many, many years. Any decisions about changes to the business during that time will be made by HARMAN's owner based on factors of profit, ROI, etc. that are unrelated to real estate.

tedr1 · Jun 3, 2016

Compared to the USA the scale of everything in the UK is smaller and the takings available to vulture capitalists are comparatively smaller, also the laws governing corporate management may be different. I want Ilford to thrive and hope everything works out for them.

AgX · Jun 3, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
HARMAN doesn't own the land; it's a tenant. There remains the better part of a decade on HARMAN's site lease. If the landlord's appeal is denied, HARMAN can just keep operating the way it has been for many, many years.

However the plan with that estate project is that Harman would get a paid move to a new-built smaller and thus more economical premises.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 3, 2016

AgX said:
However the plan with that estate project is that Harman would get a paid move to a new-built smaller and thus more economical premises.

The only advantage I can see for HARMAN would be lower utility costs for conditioning smaller spaces. Nothing has been intimated or stated explicitly to indicate rent would be reduced. I suspect many other factors are more significant in Pemberstone's operational decisions than utility costs.

MattKing · Jun 3, 2016

Sal Santamaura said:
The only advantage I can see for HARMAN would be lower utility costs for conditioning smaller spaces. Nothing has been intimated or stated explicitly to indicate rent would be reduced. I suspect many other factors are more significant in Pemberstone's operational decisions than utility costs.

If the lease includes "triple net" provisions, then Harman may be paying property taxes on a much larger property and building than they need to.

Harman Technology plans for site redevelopment

NJH

RobC

Roger Cole

RattyMouse

Chris Livsey

pdeeh

RobC

Sal Santamaura

RobC

Sal Santamaura

RobC

Sal Santamaura

DREW WILEY

Roger Cole

mr rusty

Chris Livsey

Photo Engineer

Chris Livsey

Chris Livsey

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DREW WILEY

Sal Santamaura

tedr1

AgX

Sal Santamaura

MattKing

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Harman Technology plans for site redevelopment

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