Harman Price Increases

Martin Reed · Jul 31, 2009

pentaxuser said:
...Instead it has been left to Martin Reed to make the announcement...
pentaxuser

The list of increases is very detailed, with obviously carefully calculated % differences across the range of products, and was delivered towards the end of a Friday afternoon, so probably nobody at Harman was intending to field enquiries today. So it seemed to me (although I might regret it later) a good idea to get the release out and under discussion before next week. Ultimately, although it might seem like a blow to traditional photography, there is probably some good reasoning here, and I expect Harman will let the community know shortly.

Tom Kershaw · Jul 31, 2009

pentaxuser said:
Seems strange that Simon who values APUG and arranges tours etc has not said anything. Instead it has been left to Martin Reed to make the announcement. He must have known what kind of effect this announcement would have, surely. Of course if none of this affects the N. American market where I suspect the vast bulk of Ilford revenue comes from then why would he bother to say anything.

I think we in the U.K. now know how much we matter to Ilford's future, that is, not a great deal. If it does affect the N American market as well and to the same extent then I think it tells us a lot about what Ilford have concluded about the future of the analogue market.

Maybe we all need to learn to love the effect of printing B&W negs on RA4 which suggests Kodak C41 B&W films from what I hear.

All in all it's very chilling

pentaxuser

A little over dramatic perhaps. If you want a less expensive fibre base paper Foma Variant works well. While I acknowledge fibre base paper prices have increased significantly in the last few years, I don't recall an enormous change in the amount I've paid for ILFORD 120 film over the last 5 years or so.

fotch · Jul 31, 2009

I have not paid that much attention to the price increases, perhaps I don't buy enough materiel often enough to notice. However, if this is the third increase in a 12 month period, just how much is the total increase?

aldevo · Jul 31, 2009

Andrew Moxom said:
Have materials increased that much in this economy, has inflation really increased that much?? I am not sure, but a 20% increase is HUGE.... I mean I doubt many of us would get a 20% increase in their disposable income or play money to purchase these materials with current salary restrictions in most companies. I know companies must stay in business, and make a profit, but this is quite a substantial bump and places this companies materials even further out of reach for me. Kudos for Ilford making silver products and continuing to evolve, but I cannot support them with the resources I have at my disposal.

Keep in mind that many commodity prices have dropped in the past year but, sadly, many analog photographic constituents are not among them.

- Silver prices are actually higher than 1 year ago
- Pulp paper prices are very nearly as high as 1 year ago
- Indium, Osmium and Iridium prices (rare earth elements used in panchromatic sensitization of film and paper) are just about where they were 1 year ago

Keeping in mind that Ilford has to import all of these with a British Pound that, in $ terms is at least 20% weaker than it was a year ago - and it's very possible that their costs have actually gone up despite the recession.

The "perfect storm", I'm afraid.

2F/2F · Aug 1, 2009

Yikes O'Malley! Those are huge price increases.

Curt · Aug 1, 2009

Isn't it about time Harmon / Ilford moved to China?

- Silver prices are actually higher than 1 year ago
- Pulp paper prices are very nearly as high as 1 year ago
- Indium, Osmium and Iridium prices (rare earth elements used in panchromatic sensitization of film and paper) are just about where they were 1 year ago

Keeping in mind that Ilford has to import all of these with a British Pound that, in $ terms is at least 20% weaker than it was a year ago - and it's very possible that their costs have actually gone up despite the recession.

The "perfect storm", I'm afraid.

The Perfect Storm would be all of the above plus the introduction of a new Silver Chloride Paper for ULF contact printing at the time of the film increase.

Jeff Kubach · Aug 1, 2009

I hate to see a price increase, but it's better than going out of business.

Jeff

Jedidiah Smith · Aug 1, 2009

Hmmmm. Don't mean to side-track the thread too much, but in response to "moving production to China"...is the UK as expensive (or more so) to own a business in as the USA?

//BEGIN RANT
It's insane, even over here. The Fed and state governments are so large, they want to tax the daylights out of every profit you do end up making; slap import fees or hidden tax B.S. like "hazmat fees" on all the necessary raw materials; and then make you contribute to all their little programs for your employees!
If it is the same in UK as here, then I am not surprised at all that Harmon has to raise its prices. It is the unfortunate truth, that about the only thing we can do anymore is SERVICE each other! Absurd. When will the "powers that be" wake up and realize our countries have to be competitive; we have to actually generate goods to have something to sell! You can only sell "ideas" for so long...then the rubber better hit the pavement.
OK, sorry. Not really, but you get the idea.
//END RANT

For what it's worth, I'm not usually an Ilford shooter (mostly Kodak), but I applaud them for at least trying to keep some UK manufacturing business with ethics going! Well done.
Jed

Ian Grant · Aug 1, 2009

Ilford have very high local business rates, based on the size of the factory site, these taxes are crippling businesses in the UK. The company gets NO services for these taxes.

One of my friends had his Business rates raised from £2000 a month to £2,500 early in the year, he said that's enough and ceased trading inthe first week in April, when the tax year starts in the UK. These rates are spiralling out of control, unlke domestic rates where a council has to provide services, police, fire, social service, roads, schools etc companies receive nothing and are an easy cash cow to milk for funds.

Put last years high fuel costs on top, on the last factory tour we were told this wsone of their main overheads and remember companies have to hedge their energy requirements so they won't necessarily be benifitting yetfrom the drop in prices.

It's no easy business but we all lose out with prices rises.

Ian

Ian Leake · Aug 1, 2009

Given that the price rises are inevitable, I suppose it makes sense to bring purchases forward into August if at all possible. Sort of like a buy 5 get 1 free offer... I wonder if my fridge has any space in it...

rphenning · Aug 1, 2009

I'll still buy their stuff.

ozphoto · Aug 1, 2009

This week I saw Harman branded 100ASA 36exp film right alongside Ilford Delta 100 36exp film.
Both boxes use the same fonts for the film type, size, and cat numbers; Harman box has its own website address whereas the Ilford box has its own. Both boxes state Harman Technology.
Former was $8.95/roll as compared with the latter which was $12.95/roll - prices going up on the Ilford brand, but is it the same for Harman's "own brand" so to speak as it's the first time I've seen this film.

tim_walls · Aug 1, 2009

Jeff Kubach said:
I hate to see a price increase, but it's better than going out of business.

Quite. I'm sure if/when Harman/Ilford does go out of business, APUG will be awash with wailing, gnashing of teeth, and "why couldn't someone else carry on making my favourite film, I'd still buy it even if it cost twice as much so surely someone could do this" posts - just like every other film discontinuation...

Herzeleid · Aug 1, 2009

Ilford prices are already higher than competitor products here, not much but high. I hope the stores will not abuse the price increase here, however I highly doubt it. From that point it is a bit troublesome for me, because I already pay twice the price for chemicals compared to kodak's.

Alan W · Aug 1, 2009

I just checked the Freestyle website and delta 400 is $3.79 a roll in 120 size as is tri-x.If ilford increases its price will Kodak do likewise? Personally I keep my freezer stocked with film and every time I run low I buy more-no matter what the price,I've got to have the stuff! I'm such a slow shooter that when the time comes to buy I'm always faced with a price increase.If Ilford were to stop making film I'd have to buy someone else's,and I don't think a dollar a roll less would make up for the lack of my fav. film.I'm hoping Ilford can carry on doing what they do-making fine B&W products.By the way can anyone tell me how much delta film is in Britain?

Andy K · Aug 1, 2009

I love Ilford film and paper... BUT if they carry on these price increases I will have to start looking at cheaper products. Ilford is already more expensive for me than Kodak, and I have stayed with Ilford out of loyalty to the British company. That loyalty however will only stretch so far. I see no excuse for being charged more for film in my own country by a British company, than a foreign company is charging me for an equivalent product.

Sorry Ilford, I love your film, paper and chemicals, but money talks, and if Kodak can keep me in film more cheaply, I will have no choice but to switch.

I am hoping Simon will say these price rises are temporary

pentaxuser · Aug 1, 2009

Tom Kershaw has suggested I was being overdramatic and he may well be right but I was using the statement about printing on RA4 paper simply because I have seen no such large increases in RA4 paper. So is there something special about B&W paper that doesn't affect RA4 price-wise? It seems that commodity prices are about the same or a little higher and it may well be that U.K. business rates have climbed despite businesses being less able to absorb them now in a recession but I haven't seen much in the way of headlines about swingeing rises in business rates from the doom and gloom merchants in the U.K. known as the tabloid press.

So I remain puzzled about these price increases and it may or may not be significant that amongst 1000s of potential contributors here on APUG no-one has started a post along the lines of: "What no-one has recognised here is the following incontrovertible reasons why these price increases were bound to happen" and then preceded to set them out and effectively kill the thread by an explanation that we can all accept.

Hoefully Simon Galley can do just that. I await his response which will answer these points and I can then shrug my shoulders and get on with things or take other action as appropriate knowing that llford had no choice in doing what it is doing.

pentaxuser

Anon Ymous · Aug 1, 2009

pentaxuser said:
Tom Kershaw has suggested I was being overdramatic and he may well be right but I was using the statement about printing on RA4 paper simply because I have seen no such large increases in RA4 paper. So is there something special about B&W paper that doesn't affect RA4 price-wise?

Eh, yes! RA4 paper might be tougher to manufacture, but huge amounts of it are used. It doesn't matter if you're using film or digital. Your local minilab will print on RA4. So, by producing enormous amounts of RA4, companies are able to keep prices low. BW paper production is so hopelessly lower that the prices are inevitably much higher.

Matt5791 · Aug 1, 2009

I have a feeling these prices will be for the UK market. I have dropped a line to Ilford asking them to confirm.

Ilford is pretty organised - if the rises were to be worldwide, from the same date, I would have expected other resellers outside the UK to have received the same communication - are there any resellers here from the US or Europe etc. who have had this notification?

I'll tentatively say this is about 1. making purchasing Ilford products from UK resellers less appealing to those outside the UK, as the weak £ has recently encouraged this - I know some retailers in the UK have been selling quite a bit into Europe - maybe European resellers have been lobbying Harman to do this to level the playing field; and 2. Brand management and helping to distinguish Ilford an a truly premium brand. However I'll wait for confirmation from Harman! _ I might be completely wrong.

Kentmere prices apparently stay the same - this makes Fineprint FB, in particular, start to look extremely competitive. Our price for a box of 100 8x10" is already about £12 less than MGIV FB. I personally prefer the Ilford paper, but that is a huge difference set to widen with the new prices.

Matt

Tom Kershaw · Aug 1, 2009

Matt5791 said:
I'll tentatively say this is about making purchasing Ilford products from UK resellers less appealing to those outside the UK, as the weak £ has recently encouraged this - I know some retailers in the UK have been selling quite a bit into Europe - maybe European resellers have been lobbying Harman to do this to level the playing field. However I'll wait for confirmation from Harman.

Matt

Wouldn't this strategy be anti-competitive or illegal?

Tom

rjr · Aug 1, 2009

pentaxuser said:
Tom Kershaw has suggested I was being overdramatic and he may well be right but I was using the statement about printing on RA4 paper simply because I have seen no such large increases in RA4 paper. So is there something special about B&W paper that doesn't affect RA4 price-wise?

Yes, RA4 has the magical ingredient of a rather tough market competition *and* a large market volume.

Roman

Anon Ymous · Aug 1, 2009

Matt5791 said:
...I'll tentatively say this is about 1. making purchasing Ilford products from UK resellers less appealing to those outside the UK, as the weak £ has recently encouraged this - I know some retailers in the UK have been selling quite a bit into Europe - maybe European resellers have been lobbying Harman to do this to level the playing field...

I wouldn't be surprised at all. 5x7 RC (100 sheets) is very a popular product and the price in the rest of the europe is about 67% higher!!! 25, compared to 15 in the UK, with the current exchange rate.

Jim Chinn · Aug 1, 2009

Price increases are a fact of life but eventually more folks get priced out of the market. I bought medium format gear a year ago in order to transition to making digitally enlarged negs for contact and alternative printing. At almost $7.00 a sheet for 11x14 of HP5 (current price) I can shoot 36 exposures of Arista Ultra or Acros and make adjustments to replicate HP5 density wise. With price increases apparently coming every few months making that switch becomes a matter of simple math.

Delta 100/400 were my films of choice forever in 35mm and 120 for enlarging. But this price increase places a roll of Delta 100/120 at $4.60 from Freestyle if it comes to pass. Will I give up Delta totally? No, but the vast majority of my purchases will be Arista or Acros.

Paper wise Ilford priced me out quite awhile ago.

Echoing the sentiments of Andrew Moxom, I appreciate Ilford's efforts towards traditional photography but I cannot continue to purchase thier products on my budget.

My hope is that a major price increase by Ilford does not signal a price increase from every other mfg. That would further decrease the difference between analogue and digital for a lot of folks.

Martin Reed · Aug 1, 2009

Matt5791 said:
....are there any resellers here from the US or Europe etc. who have had this notification?....

Yes, it's gone out to at least some European territories as well.

Vonder · Aug 1, 2009

In the end, we will only have Ilford paper and Fuji film to use. Everyone loves those products. Kodak seems hell-bent on getting out of film, Fuji has vowed to be the last one standing, and Ilford really is the best paper made today. Maybe Kodak will sell Tmax to Fuji.

Harman Price Increases

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Tom Kershaw

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aldevo

2F/2F

Curt

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Herzeleid

Alan W

Andy K

pentaxuser

Anon Ymous

Matt5791

Tom Kershaw

rjr

Anon Ymous

Jim Chinn

Martin Reed

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Harman Price Increases

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