Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

brbo · Nov 2, 2023

They obviously think the thing they are revealing “soon” is big enough that people will forget the poor marketing they did.

A C-41 film would probably be a letdown at this point for me. Not to mention for the targeted audience that is introduced to “new” films on daily basis…

Maybe they are releasing a spec sheet with true ISO number for the film they are converting for CatLabs?

Don_ih · Nov 2, 2023

Agulliver said:
But you can colour me seriously impressed if they've bought new machinery this year and already perfected colour film.

They've had years to do whatever they're doing - that they told people this year doesn't mean they weren't working on whatever it is. Perhaps they bought a container-ship worth of equipment from Fuji, who don't need it any more, along with some expertise in the form of training - maybe even some employees. But someone probably would've noticed a new factory being built - it's not like you can make colour film in a shed.

Helge · Nov 2, 2023

Agulliver said:
It is. Very few companies ever perfected C41 film. Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Sakura/Konica and perhaps Ferrania. That's five ****ing huge companies at the height of the film era able to invest zillions who were able to manufacture good C41 or E6 film.

It is a LOT more than three layers. Up-thread someone explained that it's 15 layers. And Harman do not possess any coating machinery capable of coating more than five layers.

Now, it's great that they are able to say they've invested millions in new production equipment. That's fantastic, whatever it turns out to be. But you can colour me seriously impressed if they've bought new machinery this year and already perfected colour film. Basically that's a feat never before achieved in the history of photography.

On the face of it, losing the historic Ilford name and going Harman would not make sense....but it's always possible they have no choice. They do not own the Ilford name outright. In fact, as I understand it, they have a limited license to use the Ilford name and trademark. It is possible that involves ongoing costs that have increased, it is even possible that the license is going to expire and they cannot agree terms to continue. This is, I must add, pure speculation but the question has been asked "Why would they rebrand"....and there are potentially reasons. We have seen the Harman branding get bigger on the film boxes. Maybe this has been some time coming.

Or maybe I am wrong and they've perfected colour film in record time. They are, after all, clever people and might have had help from FujiFilm or Eastman Kodak. The former might conceivably enter into some sort of cooperation with Harman to manufacture colour film, though there's no conceivable reason not to brand it "FujiFilm"....while the latter might reasonably feel that it will ultimately benefit them if Harman can roll out enough colour film (especially amateur C41) to take the pressure of EK.

The two conclusions it seems reasonable to consider are that this is the launch of a product or line of products they're not permitted to call "Ilford" under the terms of their license agreement.....or it's a necessary rebrand from Ilford to Harman.

There where quite a few more than the ones you mention, and very much depends on what you mean by “perfected”.

The other manufacturers of C-41 and other process colour films were hampered by the intense competitive advantage of the bigger companies. Scale of production, ability to absorb loss, and distribution network. Those factors have been lessened a whole lot today.

Of course there are more layers. But you can make respectable C-41 film with three sensitized layers.

And then there is again Adox Color Mission. Ilford is bigger and has more production capability than Adox.

You don’t “shoot” a name change or new paper. And a plastic fantastic camera is not “seriously exciting” by any stretch of the idiom.
And the possibility of Harman having worked on a real camera in secret, is close to zero and would be insanely risky.

Helge · Nov 2, 2023

koraks said:
Color film isn't "three layers". Also in other areas you're massively underestimating the challenges associated with going from B&W to color film manufacturing. It's not a matter of "oh let's feed some gunk through one or two more slits on our coater."

Of course not. But on the other hand the challenge has been overstated too.
And again, three sensitized layers for “slow” film is possible.

Ivo Stunga · Nov 2, 2023

It's weird to read some seemingly entitled potential clients of Ilford because of a marketing move in this impatient age of NOW. It's as if they're getting physically or emotionally hurt because of said move...

Meanwhile I'm at the shore and just watch the river flowing in bliss. Because if that something will be in stores, it will be in stores regardless the social media circus.

But these 15 pages tell me I'm totally a minority here lol

Agulliver · Nov 2, 2023

Helge said:
There where quite a few more than the ones you mention, and very much depends on what you mean by “perfected”.

The other manufacturers of C-41 and other process colour films were hampered by the intense competitive advantage of the bigger companies. Scale of production, ability to absorb loss, and distribution network. Those factors have been lessened a whole lot today.

Of course there are more layers. But you can make respectable C-41 film with three sensitized layers.

And then there is again Adox Color Mission. Ilford is bigger and has more production capability than Adox.

You don’t “shoot” a name change or new paper. And a plastic fantastic camera is not “seriously exciting” by any stretch of the idiom.
And the possibility of Harman having worked on a real camera in secret, is close to zero and would be insanely risky.

Which companies in addition to the ones I mentioned managed to successfully manufacture C41 or E6 films? It's always possible I missed one out.

May I ask who has made a respectable C41 film with three layers? Adox Color Mission is a work in progress and has taken them several years to get where they are. If we are to believe that Harman took delivery of some equipment capable of coating colour film just this year, and have already managed to reach a point where they are ready to mass produce a colour film for general sale.....that's really quite some feat....a feat never before achieved in the history of photography. I know the guys at Harman are some of the best in the business....but that's pushing it.

You can "shoot" anything if your meaning is you're shooting a short video about the subject. The fact is, we don't know what Expired Film Club meant by shooting something exciting. I'd counter argue that Harman working on colour film in secret is also close to zero. Though not impossible.

JParker · Nov 2, 2023

Agulliver said:
It is. Very few companies ever perfected C41 film. Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Sakura/Konica and perhaps Ferrania. That's five ****ing huge companies at the height of the film era able to invest zillions who were able to manufacture good C41 or E6 film.

Those and to a lesser extent (quality wise) Lucky Film in China have been indeed the only ones being capable of mass-production of good/competitive C41 color films in the last decades.

MCB18 · Nov 2, 2023

JParker said:
Those and to a lesser extent (quality wise) Lucky Film in China have been indeed the only ones being capable of mass-production of good/competitive C41 color films in the last decades.

I don’t even think Lucky has made C-41 recently, though I could be wrong

retina_restoration · Nov 2, 2023

Ivo Stunga said:
It's weird to read some seemingly entitled potential clients of Ilford because of a marketing move in this impatient age of NOW. It's as if they're getting physically or emotionally hurt because of said move...

Meanwhile I'm at the shore and just watch the river flowing in bliss. Because if that something will be in stores, it will be in stores regardless the social media circus.

But these 15 pages tell me I'm totally a minority here lol

Exactly. The level of “gimme gimme” impatience by some, on display in this thread is mind boggling. And mark my words, when the reveal does happen, those same people will loudly express their immense disappointment that Harman didn’t deliver their desired flavor of Big Magic. (and declaring the company a failure as a result) This was the response from some people when Ilford introduced Ortho Plus in roll formats!

Honestly. You’d think that a group of analog photographers understood (and valued) anticipation!

Oldwino · Nov 2, 2023

An announcement which reveals basically nothing results in 15 pages in which we have learned nothing. Well done, Photrio!

retina_restoration · Nov 2, 2023

Oldwino said:
An announcement which reveals basically nothing results in 15 pages in which we have learned nothing. Well done, Photrio!

#summarized

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

JParker said:
Harman Direct Positive Paper.
Harman Titan 8x10" pinhole camera.
And in addition maybe an ULF pinhole camera, extending the product range.

That is certainly the most realistic assessment written in this thread so far.
Because both the "Phoenix" topic and the BW design of the cards lead to a former Harman BW product coming back, maybe in an extended range.

I am not in a hurry, I will wait and see ( and shake my head looking at all the unrealistic speculation and conspiracy theories expressed here).

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

MCB18 said:
I don’t even think Lucky has made C-41 recently, though I could be wrong

Around 2011 I saw the last fresh Lucky films for sale. And if I remember right, it was Photokina 2012 when at their booth the Lucky guys told me film production stopped. RA-4 paper production was continued at that time (stopped some years later).

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

retina_restoration said:
Exactly. The level of “gimme gimme” impatience by some, on display in this thread is mind boggling. And mark my words, when the reveal does happen, those same people will loudly express their immense disappointment that Harman didn’t deliver their desired flavor of Big Magic. (and declaring the company a failure as a result) This was the response from some people when Ilford introduced Ortho Plus in roll formats!

Honestly. You’d think that a group of analog photographers understood (and valued) anticipation!

+ 100.

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

Helge said:
And then there is again Adox Color Mission. Ilford is bigger and has more production capability than Adox.

Please read the Adox announcement when they introduced this film: They honestly said that this film was not made by themselves, but by a film manufacturer which got into insolvency. They simply bought the coating run of that company which the producer could not distribute anymore because of their insolvency.
And there is only one film manufacturer which got into insolvency recently: InovisCoat. So the origin of Color Mission is clear.
Adox cannot make a competitive C41 film by themselves. We have to be realistic.

MCB18 · Nov 2, 2023

Film-Niko said:
That is certainly the most realistic assessment written in this thread so far.
Because both the "Phoenix" topic and the BW design of the cards lead to a former Harman BW product coming back, maybe in an extended range.

I am not in a hurry, I will wait and see ( and shake my head looking at all the unrealistic speculation and conspiracy theories expressed here).

Oh, I’m fully expecting a plastic fantastic camera. But I’m definitely hoping it’s something like a new size of film/paper.

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

MCB18 said:
Oh, I’m fully expecting a plastic fantastic camera.

They already offer that. If more will come in that direction, then probably more advanced models with more features.

MCB18 said:
But I’m definitely hoping it’s something like a new size of film/paper.

I would be really happy if the Direct Positive Paper would come back, excellent stuff. And Harman would not face any competition in that market segment.

Ian Grant · Nov 2, 2023

Film-Niko said:
They already offer that. If more will come in that direction, then probably more advanced models with more features.

I would be really happy if the Direct Positive Paper would come back, excellent stuff. And Harman would not face any competition in that market segment.

It's not been discontinued.

Ian

Agulliver · Nov 2, 2023

retina_restoration said:
Exactly. The level of “gimme gimme” impatience by some, on display in this thread is mind boggling. And mark my words, when the reveal does happen, those same people will loudly express their immense disappointment that Harman didn’t deliver their desired flavor of Big Magic. (and declaring the company a failure as a result) This was the response from some people when Ilford introduced Ortho Plus in roll formats!

Honestly. You’d think that a group of analog photographers understood (and valued) anticipation!

Yep i agree. While I do think they're missing a trick in keeping the teasing going on the social media, I'm not annoyed or frustrated. I'm still curious as to what this actually is. You know I have my theories, which I've not plucked from thin air but have delved quite deep into the available facts. But whatever it is, I'm still interested. And it's a bit like waiting for negatives to come back from the lab....or to dry. That's part of the analogue experience.

MCB18 said:
Oh, I’m fully expecting a plastic fantastic camera. But I’m definitely hoping it’s something like a new size of film/paper.

They already do a couple of them under the Ilford name I think. Like Reto/Kodak quality plastic, fixed lens but probably take perfectly reasonable photos if you're aware of the limitations.

4season · Nov 2, 2023

Well, so much for my theory that they were timing the reveal to coincide with the rebirth of another English phoenix:

But what we actually do know so far from Harman (via interview on Nico's Photography Show) is that they have spent "millions" towards the production of undisclosed product(s), and that it's their largest such expenditure in decades. Perhaps it cannot be sold under the Ilford name, which could explain the existence of harmanphoto.co.uk.

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

Ian Grant said:
It's not been discontinued.

Ian

The RC version is not available anymore for quite some time. It is also not listed anymore on their website.
The Baryta version is out of stock for all but one format.....

mshchem · Nov 2, 2023

My serious guess, a couple color film stocks, made for Ilford by Kodak, all converted and packaged by Ilford.

My guess it's not going to be something silly, flashcubes.

Film-Niko · Nov 2, 2023

4season said:
But what we actually do know so far from Harman (via interview on Nico's Photography Show) is that they have spent "millions" towards the production of undisclosed product(s), and that it's their largest such expenditure in decades.

Sorry, but I have watched the whole interview, and I have not heard such a statement of having "millions" invested in new products.
Maybe I missed that. So please give us the exact point in the interview with that statement, thanks.
Looking at the published balance sheets of Harman technology I also doubt their financial capability to invest "millions" (= several million Brit pounds) in a new product.

mshchem · Nov 2, 2023

Well, we are referring to them as Harman, not Ilford so mission accomplished.

pentaxuser · Nov 2, 2023

Ivo Stunga said:
It's weird to read some seemingly entitled potential clients of Ilford because of a marketing move in this impatient age of NOW. It's as if they're getting physically or emotionally hurt because of said move...

Meanwhile I'm at the shore and just watch the river flowing in bliss. Because if that something will be in stores, it will be in stores regardless the social media circus.

But these 15 pages tell me I'm totally a minority here lol

Well It is certainly true that all the speculation in the world will not bring whatever is coming soon to us any quicker. That's of course assumes there is something coming soon.

pentaxuser

Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

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