Harman announce price rise

pentaxuser · Jul 15, 2021

Re#54. I am not sure. Certainly Emulsive were never involved and in the past an ex-Harman executive, Simon Galley, seemed to keep us informed on this site about such things and the reasons. It just struck me as odd that a company as large as Ilford does not choose to announce such changes itself but others here may be able to say if they recall such price announcements from Ilford. Of course what we got as an announcement might have owed itself to what in former days Ilford regarded as an important site and in fact Joe Public only found out when he tried to buy an Ilford product.

It may well be that in future we either check on Emulsive ourselves as it may be the PR company for Ilford price changes or rely, as on this occasion, that one of us will have found out and then starts a thread.

I just find it slightly unsettling but this may be the same kind of reaction that is felt when what anyone thinks is a relationship, be it real or imagined, has clearly changed. I take a while to adjust to the new reality. A bit like finding that one night you can't get into the house because your partner/wife/husband has changed all the locks

You really knew that things were changing but it remained at the back of your mind and it takes some form of action on the part of the second party before it sinks in

OK, touch of whimsy there

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Jul 15, 2021

Tom Kershaw · Jul 15, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Certainly Emulsive were never involved and in the past an ex-Harman executive, Simon Galley, seemed to keep us informed on this site about such things and the reasons.

On another UK based forum someone posted news that ILFORD were discontinuing Galerie graded papers, but I've not seen confirmation of this from ILFORD / Harman themselves yet.

laingsoft · Jul 15, 2021

Not unexpected, Silver prices are up almost $5usd/oz since last year.

BrianShaw · Jul 15, 2021

villagephotog said:
Did Harman officially announce price increases to the general public before? In my experience, companies generally don't, most of the time. They send a note to their retailers to warn them, but don't make a general public statement to consumers. When I worked as a sales rep for a (large and famous) photographic brand many years ago, we never made public announcements about prices going up (or down, as occasionally happened). We just notified dealers so they could manage their stock and let the prices filter out through the system.

All too often it seems that large organizations leak the price increases to the news media or any available watchdog organizations so they can break the news to the masses.

in this case Emulsive is in the proactive camp and Photrio, sadly, is the reactive camp.

Adrian Bacon · Jul 15, 2021

logan2z said:
Nothing on their Twitter or Instagram feeds either...

im an Ilford wholesaler and they haven’t sent out an official notification or new price list yet to their wholesalers. Usually they do an annual price adjustment every April.

BrianShaw · Jul 15, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
im an Ilford wholesaler and they haven’t sent out an official notification or new price list yet to their wholesalers. Usually they do an annual price adjustment every April.

Ah… a bonafide insider! What’s yours assessment… is the news just filtering out slowly or fake news?

MattKing · Jul 15, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
im an Ilford wholesaler and they haven’t sent out an official notification or new price list yet to their wholesalers. Usually they do an annual price adjustment every April.

Adrian,
Wouldn't it be the distribution arm of Roberts Camera (the US importer and distributor of Harman products) who you would hear from?

faberryman · Jul 15, 2021

My assessment is their cost of doing business, including acquisition of raw materials, went up, and they’d like to stay in business, so they raised their prices. Occam’s Razor.

Lachlan Young · Jul 15, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
On another UK based forum someone posted news that ILFORD were discontinuing Galerie graded papers, but I've not seen confirmation of this from ILFORD / Harman themselves yet.

It'll depend a lot on how long stock depletion takes. I would not be surprised if Galerie's manufacturing cycle had gone beyond 18 months and was getting to the point that it was getting far too costly to maintain in terms of the ratio of saleable product: wastage due to time on shelf. It may be that they've made a batch 'for now' and will see how it sells - or they've been cooking up a replacement product that can be made on their rapid-mixing plant with much greater efficiency (like the Deltas and all the MG emulsions now are). I vaguely recall noticing that there were some odd curve similarities between Galerie and the new MGV RC. Maybe we're going to get a warmer MGWT (a multigrade Record Rapid/ Portriga, please!) and an MG Galerie in the space between MGWT and FB Classic. Realistically, the biggest thing Galerie has going for it is its 1K surface finish - the rest is largely popular nostalgia for graded papers, which were arguably fully surpassed by Multigrade over the last 20 years or so.

Adrian Bacon · Jul 16, 2021

MattKing said:
Adrian,
Wouldn't it be the distribution arm of Roberts Camera (the US importer and distributor of Harman products) who you would hear from?

yes. No new price list has been distributed that I’m aware of. Roberts is very good about sending out changes to their account holders, and notifying them of changes. I’m an account holder and have not received anything. I can send an email to my account rep there, but the only confirmation I’ll get, if any, is if there will be a new price sheet, and when I can expect to see it.

all that being said, people should not expect prices to stay static. That is just not realistic, especially in these times where there are major disruptions happening. Ilford should do what is sound business practice to keep them alive and well.

also, if people think that there’s a huge markup happening between the wholesale price and the MSRP or the going street price, you are sorely mistaken. Selling film is not a high profit endeavor for a retailer.

Adrian Bacon · Jul 16, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Ah… a bonafide insider! What’s yours assessment… is the news just filtering out slowly or fake news?

I don’t know. I operate off of official price sheets. As far as I’m concerned, the price sheet is the official word as that is exactly what I can order and what price I pay for it.

Danner · Jul 16, 2021

B&H still as the 50-pack of HP5+, 36-exp for $269.99, which is just $5.40/roll. Just placed an order to stock the freezer.

jtk · Jul 20, 2021

Paper made from wood pulp is inherently inferior to paper made from linen or from Asian weeds (e.g. bamboo). Much more labor/processing required to make wood-pulp based paper.

Adrian Bacon · Aug 16, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
I don’t know. I operate off of official price sheets. As far as I’m concerned, the price sheet is the official word as that is exactly what I can order and what price I pay for it.

I've received an official notification. Harman/Ilford will implement a price increase effective Thursday, August 26th. They're saying their most popular products (like HP5 135-36 and 120) will stay the same price, but everything else in Ilford Photo, Kentmere, and Paterson will see a 2.5-5 percent jump. A new price sheet is pending, should show up late this week. They're citing significant increases in costs to manufacturing and shipping as the source of the price increase.

faberryman · Aug 16, 2021

Did anyone think film and photographic paper would get less expensive over time?

pentaxuser · Aug 16, 2021

The price increase may or may not be fully justifiable in terms of rises in costs and I really don't have enough facts to come to a conclusion either way but I have no reason to believe that Ilford like any other company is not out to charge what it thinks the market will bear. It is owned by Pemberstone who are not steeped in b&w photography and even if they were why would they not charge what they think the market will bear?

Black and white photography may be our hobby but it is not Pemberstone's hobby and I'd be truly surprised if it saw as its main aim, its raison d' etre, if you will, the saving of b&w "Ilford" photography for its own sake. Most of us here would seem to have a healthy scepticism towards the behaviour of other companies price actions in terms of only ensuring that each price rise is commensurate with the absolute minimum needed to ensure the survival of themselves this charging the minimum to its customers to ensure that survival, so I wonder what are the reasons why Pemberstone are acting differently to any of these other companies i.e. the rest of the free enterprise economy whose aim is the maximisation of profits.

We tend to adopt a view that there is a kind of a " brotherhood of b&w/ b&w neighbourliness that means that the companies supplying our hobby needs are part of the brotherhood and are unlike other companies whose behaviour may warrant us holding a more "jaundiced " view

If in that respect IlfordPhoto i.e. Pemberstone does have directors/owners who are a "different manner of men" then what might be the reasons for this? If reasons exist as to why Pemberstone, the owners of IlfordPhoto should be a "different breed" driven by different motives than those we ascribe to other owners of companies the what might they be?

pentaxuser

mshchem · Aug 16, 2021

If Ilford isn't making their investors happy.....well that wouldn't be good. All the money that's been injected by the central banks has had the intended impact. Demand is high as well.

Adrian Bacon · Aug 16, 2021

pentaxuser said:
The price increase may or may not be fully justifiable in terms of rises in costs and I really don't have enough facts to come to a conclusion either way but I have no reason to believe that Ilford like any other company is not out to charge what it thinks the market will bear. It is owned by Pemberstone who are not steeped in b&w photography and even if they were why would they not charge what they think the market will bear?

Make no mistake, Harman/Ilford is not a charity. Yes there are people there that are steeped in B&W photography and care deeply about the trade, but at the end of the day, it's a company, and you should expect it to behave like one. Companies exist to make money. I find it interesting and a little bewildering how a fair number of analog photographers seem to have the position that the various companies should exist and make the products that they use, but not actually make any money doing so. Everybody knows this stuff costs money to make, it costs money to ship, it costs money to carry inventory and market, and yet, any time there's even so much as a sniffle of prices changing people act like the company has to justify it. ??? The company is subject to price fluctuations that they have no control over in order to get that package of film into your hands. I'd rather they have a healthy sustainable margin with some cash in the bank and be quick about adjusting than to try to hold the line and eek out an existence and only change prices when the doors are about to close.

That means you have to pay for the materials you use. If it's a hobby for you, then don't spend more than your disposable income will allow. If it's a business for you, then you should do what every other business does and pass your costs on to the people paying you. Harman/Ilford doesn't owe anybody an explanation or justification for changing the price on anything. If it's more than you're willing to pay, then don't buy it. If they're a responsible business, they'll adjust.

MattKing · Aug 16, 2021

It is in Harman's best interests to keep prices high enough to ensure a reasonable return on investment.
It is in Harman's best interests to keep prices low enough to keep their customers buying, which in the longer term helps ensure a reasonable return on investment.
If prices are low enough, demand will have some elasticity to it - people who enjoy using film may make the decision to spend more.
As for most customers film is not a necessity, prices that are too high are more likely to cause people not to buy, rather than to buy less.
Adrian's official notification probably didn't come directly from Harman, it probably came from the US importer and distributor, Roberts Cameras (or at least their distribution business). They too will have expenses and the need for a reasonable return on investment. As they are the sole importer and distributor of Ilford, Kentmere and Paterson products for the USA, and as the USA is Harman's largest market, I'm sure they were involved in the Harman announcement.

Adrian Bacon · Aug 16, 2021

MattKing said:
Adrian's official notification probably didn't come directly from Harman, it probably came from the US importer and distributor, Roberts Cameras (or at least their distribution business)

Yes, it came from Roberts Distributors LP.

MattKing said:
If prices are low enough, demand will have some elasticity to it - people who enjoy using film may make the decision to spend more.

Interestingly, the vast majority of people who come through my doors and buy film off my shelves and drop film off for processing are youngsters (late teens, early mid twenties, I'm not very old and easily have 20+ years on most of them), and they don't even give pause about the price. As long as it's not outrageous, they pay whatever it costs as it's probably largely a hobby for them and as long as they're inside their disposable income budget and they're having fun and getting great pictures, they're not as price sensitive. A lot of them have some pretty good digital camera systems that costs a lot more than what they spend on film. They shoot film for a very specific look. Many of them are pretty casual (a roll or two every couple months). Some are pretty serious (at least a 5 pack of Portra 400 every couple weeks), and some are trying to make a business of it.

In my experience, the older folks tend to be very price sensitive and generally are only willing to pay B&H's price. They also generally will only pay for develop only, or process it themselves. The younger folks don't want to do any of that, they just want to drop it off and get a download of their pictures.

MattKing · Aug 16, 2021

A significant percentage of my time in photo retail was spent at stores that offered mediocre but inexpensive photofinishing for prints, and first class developing for slides. Many of the slide films were sold with processing included - particularly Kodachrome.
Almost all of the customers who used a lot of film and photofinishing seemed to be very price conscious.
I had no need to send in my slide films through work - my Dad took them with him to the lab - but back then I paid a slight premium to have my pro lab develop and print all the colour negative work.
I expect that the films and photofinishing back then filled a more integral role in the everyday life of a lot of my customers back then than it does now for many of the young customers Adrian refers to. Their cel phones and digital cameras probably shoulder more of that integral role.

foc · Aug 16, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
I've received an official notification. Harman/Ilford will implement a price increase effective Thursday, August 26th. They're saying their most popular products (like HP5 135-36 and 120) will stay the same price, but everything else in Ilford Photo, Kentmere, and Paterson will see a 2.5-5 percent jump. A new price sheet is pending, should show up late this week. They're citing significant increases in costs to manufacturing and shipping as the source of the price increase.

Personally, I don't think 2.5 to 5 % increase is excessive. In fact, I think it is very acceptable for high quality products.

Adrian Bacon · Aug 16, 2021

foc said:
Personally, I don't think 2.5 to 5 % increase is excessive. In fact, I think it is very acceptable for high quality products.

They should at least keep up with inflation rates. I'd rather have more frequent smaller changes than less frequent bigger changes.

foc · Aug 16, 2021

Adrian Bacon said:
They should at least keep up with inflation rates. I'd rather have more frequent smaller changes than less frequent bigger changes.

Totally agree. Photography is not a cheap hobby but it's also not an excessively expensive one. You want to spend money on a hobby, then join a golf club or back horses.

Harman announce price rise

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