Hardening XRay Films

Flares

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Been futzing with some Fuji HRU cut down to 4x5, but have had a heck of a time with scratches on my negatives during/after development.

Would it be worth the hassle to get some chrome alum to make a hardening bath, or should I just accept gouges in the emulsion as part of working with this film?
 

mshchem

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There's a lot of old hardener recipes out there. Some were used in warm conditions (tropical processing) even before development. I have zero experience with X-ray film. Not sure it scratches any easier than ordinary sheet film. Prices of sheet film are frightening
 

DWThomas

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I've been shooting Fuji HRT in 8x10 which I assume is similar. I think the emulsion is pretty tough, but one problem is the film has emulsion on both sides. I acquired some Cesco trays with smooth bottoms -- not polished, but no ribs sticking up. I usually develop one sheet at a time and cycle them down a cascade of trays for washing. I won't say I've had no problems, but they have been minimal and I don't use hardener. I believe @Andrew O'Neill shoots some X-ray film, perhaps he'll have some comments.

I've read of folks using polyethylene bags, one sheet per bag, or in a standard tray laying a sheet of glass cut to fit pretty closely against the sides to eliminate rubbing the film on the ribs. Of course little of this applies if you're using tanks. But the double-sided emulsion needs to be considered in any handling.
 

koraks

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Flares said:
Would it be worth the hassle to get some chrome alum to make a hardening bath
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The problem really isn't the hardening per se. It's the lack of a protective supercoat. Hardening the gelatin further (it's already hardened on x-ray film) won't make all that much of a difference.

Your best bet is to learn/harnass a process that involves minimal to no scratching. It can be done, but it's fussy, especially if you're using double-sided film. I had decent luck using single-sided Ektascan B/RA back when that was still made. By the time I 'mastered' it, I realized I had been investing loads of time in a material that inherently delivered poor tonality under most conditions. Moving to regular film like Fomapan felt like a huge relief - it just works!

Btw, when using double-sided film, you could just accept the scratches on the bottom side of the film and then strip the bottom emulsion when you're done. You can do this by taping the film to a surface, image-side down, so you can strip the backside. It's a little messy, you're left with an un-stripped edge and you need to be careful you don't get any of the liquids involved on the image side. It can work.

To each their own; I just didn't find it worth the hassle, especially on 4x5. Low-end regular sheet film isn't that expensive in 4x5".
 

Don_ih

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Xray film can scratch when you slide one sheet off the top of the stack. It can scratch rubbing against the cut edges of the other sheets. If you slide it over any surface, it scratches. It's mostly annoying to use. Development works best using hangers. It oddly doesn't really scratch easily once developed and dry - so I can't see any value adding hardener.
 

Rick A

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I use flat bottom trays and PMK Pyro developer which harden the emulsion, no scratches. The only time I've had issues is when I tried rotary development.
 
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Flares

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Andrew O'Neill said:
I am using this film in 14x17, and get zero scratches, using flat-bottomed trays. How are you processing it?
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Six sheets at a time on a 4x5 reel for my Patterson tanks. I seem to get the most scratches when wet, once the film is dry it's fine.
 
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Flares

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Rick A said:
I use flat bottom trays and PMK Pyro developer which harden the emulsion, no scratches. The only time I've had issues is when I tried rotary development.
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I dev this stuff in pmk pyro as well but still tend to pull it out of the tank with decently sized gouges carved out
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I don't think any amount of hardening will help you then if using those 4x5 reels. They are pretty hard on film. I have one. I know. Is there no way that you can use a small tray? It's best to do one sheet at a time, too.
 
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Flares

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I could, it'd just balloon dev times through the roof. I'm sitting at ~10m in pmk pyro as-is, so I'd be going from knocking out a 10-sheet shoot in twenty minutes to almost two hours.

Not impossible, but that's a heck of a long time to spend in my darkroom just agitating trays
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I do it all the time. Listening to music helps pass the time...Mind you, my dev times are much shorter, any where from 4 min to 7, depending on dilution.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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In regards to hangers, one has to be very careful to not get developer surge marks. I tried it for 8x10, and just couldn't avoid them, even when doing stand/semi-stand.
 

mshchem

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Andrew O'Neill said:
In regards to hangers, one has to be very careful to not get developer surge marks. I tried it for 8x10, and just couldn't avoid them, even when doing stand/semi-stand.
Click to expand...

Never had a problem, back then I used HC-110 dilution B, agitation per Kodak. This was standard practice forever.
 

koraks

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Flares said:
it'd just balloon dev times through the roof. I'm sitting at ~10m in pmk pyro as-is, so I'd be going from knocking out a 10-sheet shoot in twenty minutes to almost two hours.
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If you mix your developer more concentrated, the process will be quicker. Contrast control is really the relation between exposure and the degree of development you give, so don't worry about 'blowing the highlights' etc; as long as you shorten the development time by an appropriate factor given the higher concentration of the developer, you'll end up with virtually the same negative.

As said before, I don't think hardening is going to help any, regardless. Tray development will. My 'best' results with double-sided film was when I used a non-stick oven tray for development; I bought it new for the purpose (one of the very cheap kind) and thus it was very nice and smooth. On some sheets of film processed in that tray I would only get some tiny scratches on the corners.

I don't think I ever got a sheet that was 100% scratch free. At least not with the double-sided stuff. Single-sided is easy.
 

Don_ih

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Andrew O'Neill said:
In regards to hangers, one has to be very careful to not get developer surge marks.
Click to expand...

You can somewhat avoid that by using a two-bath developer. The best developer I ever used for xray film was Diafine.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I know that Fujifilm makes UM-MA, which is ortho single-sided, notch codes and all, but very hard for me to source, especially in 14x17. In fact, I've not seen it in this size.
 

abruzzi

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I've also heard of people putting a sheet of glass in the bottom of the tray to avoid scratches. I've used a Stearman SP-810 daylight tray had haven't had many scratches (sometimes, but not frequently.) It would be interesting to try the 4x5 in a Stearman SP-445 or SP-645 tank. I think its less hard on the film that the spiral reels that are made to fit a patterson tank. Its not a lot differnt than loading a film holder.

I do kind of agree with Koraks though--I did it for cost in 8x10, but after all the fussing, I decided I'd rather pony up for the cost of Fomapan and have a straightforward pictorial panchromatic film.
 
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