harden the emulsion

Hello,

Is there a way to harden the film emulsion without losing the pyro stain?

I really like Fomapan 200 exposed at 125 ASA and developed in Hypercat II. Fomapan 200, and perhaps the 100 as well as the 400 Foma films, are delicate films. Delicate in the sense that they are very vulnerable to scratches. Perhaps a hardener would help me (particially) eliminate this problem. However a hardener or a fixer with a hardening component is acid. I am afraid that using an acid fixer or post-fix bath will reduce the pyro stain.

Any thoughts on this?

On a side note, could the pH value of the working developer be the root cause of the emulsion softness? If so, a switch from Hypercat II to 510-pyro could be beneficial.

Looking forward to hearing from you on this topic!

Once the stain is formed it is stable to pH therefor an acid fixer will do no harm. I suggest using a hardening fixer.

Certainly a strongly alkaline developer will help soften delicate films.

I use Iford Rapid fixer or Hypam, also Amfix all technically acid fixers but pH 5.4 is only mildly acidic, there's no effects on Pyrocatechin staing using them and it'll be the same if you add a hardener. I use Pyrocat HD and Sandy King stated that Hypam/Ilford Rapid fix wereOK.

A few years ago I did some tests with scrap prints toned in Ilford IT-8 toner, the re-developer is a simple Pyrocatechin/Carbonate developer and stop baths and fixers inc hardener had zero affects on the stain. It was the same using a Ferricyanid/Potassium Bromide bleas then the IT* developer. (The IT-8 bleach is Dichromate based so adds some stain itself).

Ian

Pyro developers harden gelatin, so no other hardening is needed. Plus all film and papers harden on their own over time without the need for hardeners.

I know nothing about Pyro developers, but in general, a 10% solution of chrome alum followed by a thorough wash before developing is supposed to toughen up the emulsion.

Vaughn said:

Pyro developers harden gelatin, so no other hardening is needed. Plus all film and papers harden on their own over time without the need for hardeners.

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I use Fomapan 100 & 200 for 120 & LF always in Pyrocat HD (now) and one of Ilford's Fixers Rapid or Hypam, or May & Baker (now Champion) mfic. The hardening isn't as good as modern Kodak and Ilford B&W films but it's far better than older Ilford films like FP3 & HP3 and the Kodak films of that era, Ilford introduced modern hardening with FP4 and HP4, Kodak a little later but not as good with Tmax 400. EFKE (Adox) films had the poorest hardening in recent years although even they improved it by the 1990's it was terrible when I first used their films in the mid 1970s, I used a hardening stopbath at that time..

If you take care - which you need to with any make of film - you don't need a hardener fixer with Foma films in any developer. The only time I've had a problem was when the 120 films were on the blue tinted very curly base and my bottom clip slipped of while hanging a roll to dry and the bottom corner nicked a frame taking emulsion off - luckily it was a frame I wouldn't have printed anyway However taht was highly unusual and a film base Foma no longer use,

Ian

Care was needed tray developing Super-XX -- seemed to be a thick soft emulsion!

Ian Grant said:

If you take care - which you need to with any make of film - you don't need a hardener fixer with Foma films in any developer.
Ian

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I do not know anyone to compare with, but I would say that I am already very careful while handling film. Nevertheless, I will give it another go. This time being extremely careful not to damage the emulsion.

MrclSchprs said:

I do not know anyone to compare with, but I would say that I am already very careful while handling film. Nevertheless, I will give it another go. This time being extremely careful not to damage the emulsion.

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My comments are in general (so may not be specific to your issue). One problem I've seen in recent years is a sloppiness in B&W film processing in particular poor temperature control and this is even more important with poorly hardened films.

You'll note in this thread that Vaughan and I both used older films from Ilford and Kodak before they really improved hardening, it was very critical with these emulsions to keep very step of the process +/- 1ºC (0.5ºF) of the chosen working temperature usually 20ºC throughout the process stages including washing. The films would reticulate very easily, frill, emulsion lift off, if there were sudden temperature changes. That's why I say you need to take care, I learnt the hard way, tight temperature control - checking for any drift during development & correcting).

Many on the forums say don't use wetting agent while the films are on the reels, that's a huge mistake, it needs to be done while the film is on the reel and in the tank, you need to keep handling of wet film to the absolute minimum - that's the time for most care . Just wash the reel and tank with reasonably hot water after which you should be doing anyway.

I've shot quite a few rolls of Fomapan in 120, well over a hundred+, and a few boxes of 5x4, usually at 20ºC but some at 27ºC while in Turkey, and have no problems (except the once as I mentioned above which was my own fault).

Ian

Ian Grant said:

+/- 1ºC (0.5ºF)

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Ian:
I believe you mean +/- 1ºF (0.5ºC).

MattKing said:

Ian:
I believe you mean +/- 1ºF (0.5ºC).

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Correct Matt, I was thinking backwards, I don't use ºF, actually I meant +/- 1ºC or +/-2ºF. For Colour work it needs to be tighter still.

Ironically when I'm in Turkey I can easily keep the process cycle to +/- 0.2ºC because the tap water temperature stays so constant that I work at that temperature. Here in the UK it fluctuates far more.

Ian