Hard Enough? (Hardener/Fixer Question)

Hi all:

I'm redoing my (small) darkroom (and picking chemistry) and wanted opinions from those more advanced in their darkroom work than myself. I mainly develop 4x5 sheets in (2 liter) tanks or in trays.

Previously, I had used Kodak Rapid Fix with Hardener; especially since I sometimes liked to use films like Efke (that recommend a hardener) - but now I am sticking mostly to emulsions like Tri-X 320, T-Max, and FP4+ (and maybe Arista EDU Ultra on occasion).

Do you feel there is any reason to use a hardener in the film fixer, or are fixers like Ilford Rapid Fix (which I find easier to use and store) fine for most applications?

A hardener isn't needed at all now, I use EFKE 25 with Ilford Rapid Fix/Hypam & no hardener. The benefits areshorter wash times, and there's no disadvantages.

Ian

Do you feel there is any reason to use a hardener in the film fixer, or are fixers like Ilford Rapid Fix (which I find easier to use and store) fine for most applications?

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Why is Ilford Rapid Fix easier to use and store, I've always used Kodak Rapid Fix with the Hardener? I follow the usage that Ron, PE, said in an earlier thread.

Maybe this will be the thread that finally ends the discussion on whether a hardener is needed or not. I'm sure that there are times when it is needed and times when it is not. The problem I see is when the fixer is mixed in 5 or 10 gallons of stock. I don't have the need or space to make up two containers of stock, one with and one without the hardener. Add that to the Prismatic Rice Crystal Hypo that I use for AZO and now Lodima I would soon become overrun with fixer.

This could be the restart of a great discussion on Fixer.

Curt

Curt said:

Why is Ilford Rapid Fix easier to use and store, I've always used Kodak Rapid Fix with the Hardener? I follow the usage that Ron, PE, said in an earlier thread.
Curt

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Ilford's easier to use and store (for me) because I have a small (minimal) darkroom - and mixing 2 liters of liquid, as I use it - tends to be less trouble than mixing a gallon of powdered fixer at a time (and storing half).

You are so close to the Formulary in Boise, you should drive over there and get some of their fixers to try.

PE

In general, the hardener does no harm. It may be helpful with a few films, especially the old style emulsions. But for modern emulsions, it does not seem to be needed. For prints, it may actually be a disadvantage. Many toners work better on unhardened prints. The fixers fron Photographers' Formulary are excellent, but you can also buy the raw chemicals from them to make up your own rapid fixer with very little trouble. I use this:

Ammonium thiosulfate (60 percent solution) 190 ml
Water 500 ml
Sodium sulfite (anhydrous) 1 teaspoon
Sodium metabisulfite 1 teaspoon
Water to make 1 liter

It works fine. There is no weighing, but precision is not needed to build an effective fixer. This fixer is very slightly acid (pH around 6.5).

Thanks everyone for the responses.
And thanks nowrth and Photo Engineer for the mention of Photographer's Formulary. I've been wanting to try their TF-4 Rapid Fixer, and should drive out there because I have some questions in regard to it.
First, it's description notes that a stop bath is not necessary; I wonder if that is in regard to just paper, or both paper and film (and if a water stop or rinse of any kind is needed).
The description also notes it's effectiveness with TMAX film, as well as with Pyro developer (something I would like to try sometime) -- but I'm assuming it works just as well with other emulsions and other developers.
If anyone has some comments on that - the information would be greatly appreciated.

(Just a side note: in my second post - I meant to say liquid, not powder in reference to Kodak Rapid Fix - I had Xtol on my mind when I wrote it)

John;

TF-4 can be used for film or paper and it can be used either with or without a stop bath.

PE