Handmade Liquid Emulsion

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

This feels like essentially a new site. New people, too, perhaps? Thought it worthwhile to reintroduce handmade silver gelatin emulsions -- better known as "liquid emulsion." Easy. Fun. Much less expensive than commercial products. Takes a minimum of space and equipment. No chemistry background required. Or, if you do love going deep in the lab rat weeds, it can be the whole full-up science deal. 140 years of photographic history allows a lot of territory to play in! This is the online place to learn.

Nodda Duma · Aug 23, 2017

Hi Denise,

What is your latest experiment? Mine has been determining how long a basic emulsion recipe will last pre-coated and stored in the fridge. I have just a little bit of a batch left that I mixed up last July. I coated plates with it in April and those were perfect. I will heat the last of it and coat some plates soon as a final test.

Of course, the coated plates are still perfectly fine.

-Jason

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Hi Jason,
Great to hear! That's been my experience, too, but you never know if something is more universally true than your own experience. I hope you post images when you get the plates exposed and processed!

I've been playing with the different color photography possibilities this summer, but mostly I've been working on a new book about making B&W printing paper. I hope to have it done before next summer because I prefer photo'ing to writing .

removed account4 · Aug 23, 2017

dwross said:
This feels like essentially a new site. New people, too, perhaps? Thought it worthwhile to reintroduce handmade silver gelatin emulsions -- better known as "liquid emulsion." Easy. Fun. Much less expensive than commercial products. Takes a minimum of space and equipment. No chemistry background required. Or, if you do love going deep in the lab rat weeds, it can be the whole full-up science deal. 140 years of photographic history allows a lot of territory to play in! This is the online place to learn.

what a post !

as easy or difficult as one wants, and almost too much fun to explain, even when it doesn't work out the way one had planned
the only essential equipment is eye protection after that ...

looking forward to the next book denise !
john

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Someday soon a whole bunch of people are going to figure out overnight that silver gelatin emulsion is the best alternative process ever. They will wonder what took them so long to get started!
(Your print, Cyclone #3 is gorgeous!)

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

dwross said:
Someday soon a whole bunch of people are going to figure out overnight that silver gelatin emulsion is the best alternative process ever. They will wonder what took them so long to get started!
(Your print, Cyclone #3 is gorgeous!)

Denise - I think you will be the last person standing when it comes to making silver prints and I may need you to make me some custom paper some day..... But the best alternative process ever IMHO is multiple colour gums, and I hope one day we
get to meet and discuss..

Bob

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

Denise
I saw some silver paper prints that Ron made a few years back when I visited GEH and what a lovely process..

So in your estimation, how much would it cost to coat a 16 x20 live area on a 20 x24 sheet of paper, and could that paper be something like Aches Platine, or similar nice art paper???

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Bob,
Aw, but that's the beauty of silver gelatin. You can do almost anything with it, including using it as the K layer for gum printing (one of my favorite things to do!)

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
Denise
I saw some silver paper prints that Ron made a few years back when I visited GEH and what a lovely process..

So in your estimation, how much would it cost to coat a 16 x20 live area on a 20 x24 sheet of paper, and could that paper be something like Aches Platine, or similar nice art paper???

For that size print, the cost of the silver (the other chemicals are incidental) would be about the same cost as good watercolor paper. The limitation (at least how I coat) is that commercial puddle pushers only go to 12" wide. I've made a larger one that works just fine, but I've always been partial to smaller prints, so it doesn't get much use. Making a custom puddle pusher is something a glass company could do for you, especially if you bring them glass tubing. You can coat as long a piece as the size of your paper and/or the length of your arms. Here's a bit more info: http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmltutgen.py?content=22Jan2013

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

dwross said:
Bob,
Aw, but that's the beauty of silver gelatin. You can do almost anything with it, including using it as the K layer for gum printing (one of my favorite things to do!)

Yikes - I never thought about that one holy crap batman I just got schooled... what a great Idea now I am quite interested.

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

dwross said:
For that size print, the cost of the silver (the other chemicals are incidental) would be about the same cost as good watercolor paper. The limitation (at least how I coat) is that commercial puddle pushers only go to 12" wide. I've made a larger one that works just fine, but I've always been partial to smaller prints, so it doesn't get much use. Making a custom puddle pusher is something a glass company could do for you, especially if you bring them glass tubing. You can coat as long a piece as the size of your paper and/or the length of your arms. Here's a bit more info: http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmltutgen.py?content=22Jan2013

Today my image size is 20 x 16 average but I just bought a plate burner from my pal Ginette and I can do full sheet 22 x30 prints so this is where I want to end up... 18 x 27 approx image size.

So for the k layer, coat the paper with silver , expose under normal darkroom conditions, process as normal and this is the base for future gum overhits.???

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
Yikes - I never thought about that one holy crap batman I just got schooled... what a great Idea now I am quite interested.

I always thought about using pre made silver paper for this but the shrinkage and mounting to aluminum got to be an issue in safelight.
Your way just pre shrink the paper, coat your emulsion hit the print and process and then move on... this may be a bit of a game changer for me.

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Exactly. Easiest for me to just refer to my website. This is from a number of years ago. I'm working on an update, but in the meantime, the basic information is here:
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Silvergum/SilvergumPart1.htm

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Bob, I would absolutely love to see what you could do with the process. My jaw drops just thinking about the possibilities.

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

dwross said:
Bob, I would absolutely love to see what you could do with the process. My jaw drops just thinking about the possibilities.

Denise On another thread of mine Multiple Layer Gum Process... I can talk a bit more about this the actual film generation side , but putting using silver coating into the mix , using my silver negative separations would
be incredible..

this past week I solarized film (huge) so I can work from a black makie line perspective (Man Ray inspired) I think that I could solarize your liquid emulsion as well, the possibilities are endless... I am working
with an artist right now in Vancouver that this may be a working option for his series of work.

Image Brendan Meadows. Image is from solarized film, this is not a print solarization,

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

dwross said:
Exactly. Easiest for me to just refer to my website. This is from a number of years ago. I'm working on an update, but in the meantime, the basic information is here:
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Silvergum/SilvergumPart1.htm

Thanks Denise - I am going to follow up with this with one of the artist that work with me, she has been working in my darkroom for over 20 years and is quite interested in silver (lith) and now gum, this may be perfect for her to work and experiment
I will post results over time.

Bob

Photo Engineer · Aug 23, 2017

I have coated 16x20 emulsion on 20x24 Strathmore and also on some old Baryta paper. The coatings were fine, just like the ones used in the prints that Bob saw. That coating uses about 40 ml of emulsion to properly coat.

This week, Nick is teaching a course in intermediate emulsion making using a new bromide emulsion that we whipped up based on one of my earlier posts. He is getting a speed of 18-25 with it. He is also using it for paper coatings. The workshop is full, showing a lot of continuing interest in this subject.

PE

Bob Carnie · Aug 23, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
I have coated 16x20 emulsion on 20x24 Strathmore and also on some old Baryta paper. The coatings were fine, just like the ones used in the prints that Bob saw. That coating uses about 40 ml of emulsion to properly coat.

This week, Nick is teaching a course in intermediate emulsion making using a new bromide emulsion that we whipped up based on one of my earlier posts. He is getting a speed of 18-25 with it. He is also using it for paper coatings. The workshop is full, showing a lot of continuing interest in this subject.

PE

the prints I saw were great Ron, I am glad this is taking off at GEH. and of course I hope you are doing well . Bob
based on the coating size you mention , how much emulsion cost do you estimate?

Who is Nick btw , I remember meeting two younger guys when I visited , is he one of them.

dwross · Aug 23, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
Thanks Denise - I am going to follow up with this with one of the artist that work with me, she has been working in my darkroom for over 20 years and is quite interested in silver (lith) and now gum, this may be perfect for her to work and experiment
I will post results over time.

Bob

There are so many processes yet to be put through their paces. Lith should be a natural. It might take a try or more to figure out the best paper for the process, but given that handmade paper can be made Cl, ClBr, and Br, something will fit the bill. I very much look forward to seeing the results. A process I'm eager to try is carbro. Even better would be if someone else gave it try. The base is bromide paper without a hard super-coat. Exactly what is one of the easiest papers to make. So much fun. So little time! carpe diem!

brazile · Aug 23, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
Who is Nick btw , I remember meeting two younger guys when I visited , is he one of them.

"Nick" is Nick Brandreth of GEM, and I'm guessing is likely one of the two younger guys you met.

We were lucky enough to have PE hang out with us today at the workshop, which is as always a great deal of fun.

Robert Brazile

Photo Engineer · Aug 23, 2017

Figure 5 - 10 g Silver Nitrate per 100 ml of emulsion, perhaps 1/2 that depending on emulsion. There are several types.

I enjoyed visiting the workshop today. I just wish I could do it more often. Nick is doing a super job, as always. Bob(s) both of you, thanks for the comments on this type of subject.

PE

Prof_Pixel · Aug 23, 2017

brazile said:
"Nick" is Nick Brandreth of GEM, and I'm guessing is likely one of the two younger guys you met,

The other young fellow from a couple of years ago was Chris Holmquist.

Bob, I'm the fellow who talked to you all yesterday afternoon about the power supply.

mshchem · Aug 23, 2017

About 30 years back I made a bromide emulsion. I used Knox unflavored gelatin, silver nitrate and KBr. I followed Rev. Burbank's book from the 19th century. Super easy to make the emulsion. I tried "floating" the paper, didn't work well had air bells. The paper worked fine for projection printing. I cooked the emulsion for 24 hours in a small lab oven (supposed to increase speed?) Chilled and set the emulsion, broke it up and washed it in a cloth flow through bag with very cold tap water. I would like to try it with a proper coater. Still I'm glad for Ilford and Foma
Mike

Photo Engineer · Aug 23, 2017

Heating that long (depending on temperature) will denature the gelatin and cause other problems. Knox gelatin is not satisfactory. Use an oxidized photo grade gelatin.

PE

Nodda Duma · Aug 24, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
I have coated 16x20 emulsion on 20x24 Strathmore and also on some old Baryta paper. The coatings were fine, just like the ones used in the prints that Bob saw. That coating uses about 40 ml of emulsion to properly coat.

This week, Nick is teaching a course in intermediate emulsion making using a new bromide emulsion that we whipped up based on one of my earlier posts. He is getting a speed of 18-25 with it. He is also using it for paper coatings. The workshop is full, showing a lot of continuing interest in this subject.

PE

Hi Ron,

You guys willing to share the new recipe?

I'm in the process of determining what my next batch will be, now that I'm comfortable with the basics. Maybe try a faster recipe or add sensitizing dye.

-Jason

Handmade Liquid Emulsion

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