Handcrafted Silver Gelatin

jag2x · Oct 8, 2007

Hi Bruce,

I too am having a tough time trying to figure out in my head how to achieve a curve. Though I havent even got that far as yet to apply a curve.
I'm also following Christina's book on Alt Gum printing...a great resource I must say!
At the moment I'm trying to figure out the relationship between the solutions I'm using, but pushing and pulling the ml.
Anyhow I did come across Bill Mabrey website, http://www.billymabrey.com
He has a step by step guide on how to achieve it. Though the last part isnt fully detailed in photos, but the crux of it is there.
Not so sure if it'll help you, but in my mind what Bill says makes sense.

You can also wait for her new book I heard from the alt post that shes going to be publishing it at the end of the year, i'll be waiting for that for sure!
Good luck with it all..
cheer
Jacek
www.jagnight.com

dwross2 · Oct 8, 2007

Hello Jacek,

Many thanks for the encouraging words. They are much appreciated.

Your question about emulsion recipes comes at a great time. I spent the weekend in grocery stores and hardware stores putting together an emulsion-making kit that anyone would have access to. Right now, my favorite recipe involves a bit more lab equipment than I think most people would be interested in - at least to get started. Our infamous Pacific Northwest winter weather is set to roll in tomorrow and I'm ready to hole up and make gourmet emulsions. My plans are to publish a revamped website by New Year's with as much information as I can generate.

Good luck and lots of fun with your gum printing. It's a great process. I can't believe it's taken me so many years to finally get into it. Katharine was very inspiring. I love your attitude: "...it was just that, flaking!" I'm looking forward to seeing some of your prints and hearing about your adventures.

Denise

Katharine Thayer · Oct 8, 2007

jag2x said:
Anyhow I did come across Bill Mabrey website, http://www.billymabrey.com
He has a step by step guide on how to achieve it. Though the last part isnt fully detailed in photos, but the crux of it is there.
Not so sure if it'll help you, but in my mind what Bill says makes sense.

Jacek, thanks for this link. Someone, maybe Bruce?, had mentioned the artist to me before, but I had only looked at his prints online; I didn't even realize there were tutorials. These are really great, and I love the animated illustrations. The instructions he offers are general enough to be useful under a range of conditions and equipment, not cluttered up with a lot of theory and misinformation as many resources are, and comprise an open and welcoming introduction to gum; I like it a lot.

And I'm also glad to see he's publishing a book this fall; the more books the better, IMO. What you learn from reading a lot of different books is that
there's no one way, or one best way, to print gum; there are many roads to the kingdom. The best way to learn to print gum is to print gum, and the method you'll end up with will almost certainly not be like anyone's method but your own.

Many people have asked me to turn my website into a book, since there is so much information there that would be easier to access in book form, maybe. Maybe I just need to improve the navigation on the site. At any rate, I've resisted that request since color illustrations are so important in demonstrating things about gum printing, IMO, and most manuals, for reasons of publishing economics, have to be published in black and white, with maybe a couple of color pages inserted; this doesn't suit my ideas of gum education like a color website does, so I've stuck to the website.

Thanks for kind words,
Katharine

Katharine Thayer · Oct 9, 2007

BruceRC said:
Denise

I read your blog information (good info) and have a question concerning your digital negative process for use with Gum Bichromate. I realize this post may be better in the Digital Negative portion of the Alt Photo list, but I thought I would post it here.

When you make your RGB negatives, are you applying a different curve to each of the 3 RGB negatives? I have read that some people apply a curve for each negative dependent on the color pigment they will use. I cant seem to figure out how they determine what the curve should look like. Any help would be appreciated.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,
I'm a little late answering this, didn't answer before because the answers went off in a direction that didn't interest me. I only realized yesterday that you and Jacek are asking a very basic question: how do you make the curves? The best, easiest, cheapest and most democratic way is to use ChartThrob, following Michael's instructions here:

Dead Link Removed

Michael's right here so if you have any questions be sure to ask.

I've only calibrated curves for one set of pigments for tricolor so far, but I find the curves so similar that I can't imagine that it would make any difference to use the calibrated curve for each pigment vs using the same curve on all pigments. But I've also learned, in extensive testing about curves, that the shape of the curve depends more on the color saturation of the pigment mix than on its color per se. A more saturated mix gives a deeper curve, a less saturated mix gives a shallower curve.

Those who mix all pigments at the same proportions will necessarily generate different curves for their different pigment mixes, because mixing everything to the same amount of paint per gum guarantees that the color saturation will be different for the different pigments. I prefer to mix my pigments to the same color saturation rather than using the same amount of pigment; this promotes a better balance of colors and more consistent results using different pigments, as well as being able to use the same curve across the board. Hope that's helpful,
Katharine

jag2x · Oct 9, 2007

Hi Katharine,

I understand that each pigment has different levels of saturation. How does one determine full colour saturation when mixing a specific pigment?

Thanks
Jacek

Katharine Thayer · Oct 9, 2007

jag2x said:
Hi Katharine,

I understand that each pigment has different levels of saturation. How does one determine full colour saturation when mixing a specific pigment?

Jacek, I think I'd say that a little differently; I'd say that pigments vary in pigment strength, or intensity, rather than saturation, since you can mix any pigment to any level of saturation; however the strength or intensity of a pigment is inherent to the pigment; no amount of adding more pigment is going to make a weak pigment more powerful. To be color-science-technical about it, in one sense you could say pigments vary in hue saturation, since for example burnt sienna is less"saturated" or less intense a red hue than quinacridone red or cadium red, but when I'm referring to mixing pigments to different levels of color saturation, I'm not using the word in quite that sense. When I talk about a "fully saturated" mix, I just mean mixed as dark as it can be mixed for printing gum. Much more burnt sienna pigment, or paint, will be needed to reach that saturation level than for pthalo or lamp black, for example, which are much more powerful pigments, which is why the recommendation from some gum printers to mix all paints in the same proportion to gum makes no sense to me at all.

I mix to different saturations depending on the purpose, and I determine color saturation by eye, as painters do. I keep color swatches made by brushing a little gum/pigment mix onto paper to match the color when I'm mixing a new mix of the same pigment for the same purpose. For example, the Prussian blue mix I use for one-coat prints looks black when painted on paper; the Prussian blue mix I use for tricolor looks mid-dark blue. Hope that's helpful,
Katharine

Katharine Thayer · Oct 9, 2007

P.S. Since showing works a lot better than telling, it occurred to me that I could just brush some of each of the pigment mixes on paper and show you what I mean by pigment mixes for tricolor that are balanced in saturation. This set of mixes is one of the standard sets I use for tricolor; it makes a bright, intense, saturated and nicely-balanced color print. The mixes are balanced in saturation so that no pigment overwhelms the others; yellow and red hold their own with cyan. These are the mixes I did the calibrations on that gave me identical curves for the different pigments. For a more delicate, less saturated color picture, I would dilute these mixes, or use different pigments altogether, but I would balance the saturation of the mixes in the same way. Hope that's useful,
Katharine

donbga · Oct 9, 2007

Katharine Thayer said:
These are the mixes I did the calibrations on that gave me identical curves for the different pigments.

You got identical or similar curves for different pigments?

Don Bryant

Katharine Thayer · Oct 9, 2007

Don Bryant said:
You got identical or similar curves for different pigments?

Yes. See my post of 8:49 am today in this thread for further explanation, thanks.
kt

Bruce · Oct 22, 2007

Hi Jacek

Sorry I am late in responding to your message (#52) but I was on vactaion in Monterey and San Francisco Ca.

Yes, curves are a little frustrating at first but it will come with time and experimenting.

Bill Mabrey info on curves and Katlarine Thayer's web site, Denise Ross's blog and inputs from many others are very helpful. They all have great insight and experience to share.

Bruce

Bruce · Oct 22, 2007

Katharine Thayer said:
Hi Bruce,
I'm a little late answering this, didn't answer before because the answers went off in a direction that didn't interest me. I only realized yesterday that you and Jacek are asking a very basic question: how do you make the curves? The best, easiest, cheapest and most democratic way is to use ChartThrob, following Michael's instructions here:

Dead Link Removed

Michael's right here so if you have any questions be sure to ask.

I've only calibrated curves for one set of pigments for tricolor so far, but I find the curves so similar that I can't imagine that it would make any difference to use the calibrated curve for each pigment vs using the same curve on all pigments. But I've also learned, in extensive testing about curves, that the shape of the curve depends more on the color saturation of the pigment mix than on its color per se. A more saturated mix gives a deeper curve, a less saturated mix gives a shallower curve.

Those who mix all pigments at the same proportions will necessarily generate different curves for their different pigment mixes, because mixing everything to the same amount of paint per gum guarantees that the color saturation will be different for the different pigments. I prefer to mix my pigments to the same color saturation rather than using the same amount of pigment; this promotes a better balance of colors and more consistent results using different pigments, as well as being able to use the same curve across the board. Hope that's helpful,
Katharine

Kathrine

Thanks for the response and help I was on vacation and didnt have computer access.

Bruce

dwross2 · Nov 12, 2007

Hi All:

To those of you who asked me to let you know when I post my new section, here it is:

http://dwrphotos.com/blog/Section13/GlassNegatives.htm

Thanks for the support and encouragement!
d

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 12, 2007

Great new page, Denise, and I like the workshop structure of "The Light Farm."

You might want to consider a different pyro formula for your tests. I like PMK for its grain masking effect with smaller formats, but the high background stain (i.e.--base fog) characteristic of PMK looks like it's giving you lower contrast than you might otherwise get from this emulsion. I like ABC pyro, myself. I've seen and printed some fine Pyrocat-HD negs as well, though I haven't been a user of that formula personally. And of course, there are various other options, which I'm sure you're aware of.

dwross2 · Nov 12, 2007

Thank you, David. And, thank you for the developer tip. I've never gotten around to testing ABC pyro. When the Light Farm goes online, each collaborative recipe development will include suggestions like yours. I very much appreciate your explanation of why you make the recommendation that you do.
Cheers,
d

smieglitz · Nov 12, 2007

You've inspired me to try my hand at emulsion making again Denise. The halation effect is cool and especially timely with the announcement that HIE won't be made any longer.

Joe

dwross2 · Nov 13, 2007

Joe:

You've made my day, maybe my week! I wish you much fun and satisfaction. I hope you consider contributing to the Light Farm's emulsion encyclopedia.

d

dwross2 · Dec 8, 2007

Hi All:

I thought I'd send out another update on the Light Farm silver gelatin website. I'm still pretty much on track for a 'soon after the first of January' release date. It will help if the electricity stays on! We got off easy on the first-ever Oregon hurricane (only 100 mph here rather than the 120 some areas saw) but we still were juice-less for two days. Fun though.

I would love for the folks who are making emulsions to think about becoming a Contributing Editor to the Light Farm. Here's a heads-up to the page that talks about that:

///H:/TheLightFarm/Current/Map/HowToParticipate/MapTopic.htm

Please note that it isn't linked to any other page right now. If you haven't been following the progress on launching this beast, here is the UnderConstruction page:
http://dwrphotos.com/blog/Section14/thelightfarm.htm

I haven't figured out the details yet, but I'd like the Light Farm to have some relationship with hybrid. If my mission is a renaissance, then the more people aware and participating the better! It's my goal that my work and blather becomes only a small part of the whole.

Best wishes for a creative weekend to all,
d

dwross2 · Dec 8, 2007

Hi again:

I don't know why the How to Participate address didn't go hot. I'll investigate and try again soon. This is why it's nice to beta with friends!
d

http://www.thelightfarm.com/howtoparticipate/maptopic.htm

donbga · Dec 8, 2007

dwross said:
Hi again:

I don't know why the How to Participate address didn't go hot. I'll investigate and try again soon. This is why it's nice to beta with friends!
d

http://www.thelightfarm.com/howtoparticipate/maptopic.htm

Your links in the above post were pathed to a local drive!

Don

dwross2 · Dec 8, 2007

Thanks! Don,
I'm hoping all is good now and that the two addresses I originally tried to post are coming through loud and clear.

By the way: Any chance I can get you to try your talented hand at handmade silver gel someday ?

d

donbga · Dec 8, 2007

dwross said:
By the way: Any chance I can get you to try your talented hand at handmade silver gel someday ?

d

Yes it is on my list of things to do but it isn't on the horizon right now. I have so many other projects in the hopper that I can't undertake anything new. Don't worry though, I want to try it out and I'm following your work closely.

Don

dwross2 · Feb 3, 2008

Hi All,

I'm finally up for air! I've been at the job of launching The Light Farm almost literally around the clock since the day after Christmas. I finally understand divine obsession. I hope that some of you give making emulsions a try. I'd love to see what some of the enormous talent that visits this site could do with the field.

I have linked to hybrid for questions about making digital negatives. I can't imagine a better source of information on the subject than these pages.

I'm looking forward to catching up on all the new posts here. It looks like folks have been busy and creative.

Cheers,
Denise Ross
http://www.thelightfarm.com/

keithwms · Feb 3, 2008

Denise, thanks for bumping this thread, I hadn't seen it. Cool work.

dwross2 · Feb 3, 2008

Thank you, Keith, for the kind word. I love the look of your website, and your images are beautiful.
d

keithwms · Feb 3, 2008

dwross said:
Thank you, Keith, for the kind word. I love the look of your website, and your images are beautiful.
d

<blush> you are the very first person to comment on it, I just got it up. Thanks!

Now, looking at your site, I see that there are many things to read and try.

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