hand-held MF?

Peter Williams · Oct 8, 2007

I tried the Hasselblad (500CM) and just didn't care for it. I do use a Mamiya 6 handheld with no issues and I used to use a Rolleiflex handheld as well. I think both of these cameras are great for walk around/candid shots. I would also suggest renting/trying before buying.

jgcull · Oct 8, 2007

>>>Go for what you want, not for what people tell you<<<

Yes, of course, in the end. But since I don't have the opportunity to see and try everything, I'd like to know what's available and which direction to look.

Someone asked what I didn't like as well about shooting the Hassy. I move slowly with it on a tripod. I can't be a spontaneous as with my Nikons, obviously. I know there's an inherent difference between the two types. I just get more of what I like, subject wise, with a smaller on-the-run body and I'd like the best of both worlds in one. haha?

I probably should have said, I do like using it with the waist level finder better than with the (sorry) prism I have and I don't know how the grip might work with that. I'll have to check it out. I see one for sale for a good price. I'll try that and go from there.

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer, all, and I'll look back in on all this info if I don't work it out satisfactorily.

eddym · Oct 8, 2007

k_jupiter said:
The answer is... A Rollieflex 600X sitting on a pistol grip with the strap around your neck. It's an amazingly well balanced camera with superb optics. I don't own one, money being what it is, but I have tested them and it would be on the short list of perfectly designed cameras from an ergonomic point of view.

I do own a Rollei 6003 with the grip, and I can affirm that it is one of the most ergonomic medium format cameras available. It's only drawback is its weight, which you will notice if you carry it by the neckstrap, but not when you are holding it by the grip for shooting. It is MUCH more ergonomic than a Hasselblad (which I also own).

On the other hand, to go back to answer the original question, I would first ask about your style of shooting. If you learned to shoot with a 35mm SLR or rangefinder, then something like a Pentax or Mamiya 645, or the Mamiya 7 or 6 would be a good choice for you, because they are designed for eye level shooting.

However, I find the most hand-holdable medium format camera to be a Rollei TLR with waist level finder. It is relatively light and easy to carry on a neck strap, and can be shot hand-held at much slower shutter speeds than any camera with a moving mirror. By tensioning the neckstrap and practicing breath control, a TLR can be shot handheld at speeds of 1/15 or less. It makes a wonderful "walking-around" camera, and if you scale focus you don't even need to look into the finder; it becomes a silent, inconspicuous point-and-shoot camera that gives great results.

eddym · Oct 8, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
Pistol grips are very much underrated for boxy medium format cameras. I have one for my Bronica S2a, and it makes for a very stable package with a prism finder (it's awkward, though, with the WLF)--like a small movie camera.

The greatest, handholdablest medium format ever made was the Linhof 220. It was like a medium format Leica M turned vertical, with a pistol grip attached below, with a trigger shutter release. Super sharp 95mm f3.5 lens, very fast shooting and film advance. 6x7 negs. Incredible camera. I've owned 2, and I've made some of my best shots with them.
Only problem: they were delicate.

Roger Hicks · Oct 8, 2007

eddym said:
However, I find the most hand-holdable medium format camera to be a Rollei TLR with waist level finder. It is relatively light and easy to carry on a neck strap, and can be shot hand-held at much slower shutter speeds than any camera with a moving mirror. By tensioning the neckstrap and practicing breath control, a TLR can be shot handheld at speeds of 1/15 or less. It makes a wonderful "walking-around" camera, and if you scale focus you don't even need to look into the finder; it becomes a silent, inconspicuous point-and-shoot camera that gives great results.

Absolutely right -- IF you can stand them. I find them incredibly unergonomic. I fully accept that I'm in a small minority on this and that most who use them, love them. I'd just enter the caveat that there are those who can fully understand what you say and why you say it, but still don't agree.

eddym · Oct 8, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Absolutely right -- IF you can stand them. I find them incredibly unergonomic. I fully accept that I'm in a small minority on this and that most who use them, love them. I'd just enter the caveat that there are those who can fully understand what you say and why you say it, but still don't agree.

Hiya Roger--
That's why I preceded the lines you quoted by saying that it depends on a person's shooting style. Photographers who love eye-level shooting, such as with rangefinders (which I know you do) do not usually adapt well to waistlevel finders. They find them... is "unergonomic" really a word?

zone v · Oct 8, 2007

I also use a Mamiya 7. Its a great camera with a leaf shutter. No mirror vibes. Lenses are excellent!

Mackinaw · Oct 8, 2007

I've owned a Hasselblad years back, have access to a Rollei 6003 and currently own an old Mamiya C220, but the best 120 easily-handheld camera I've ever used is my old circa-1950's Mamiya 120 folder. Relatively small, easily to carry and comes with a 75mm Olympus Zuiko lens capable of taking very sharp pictures. Cost me all of $40.00 USD too. It goes everywhere with me.

Jim Bielecki

jgcull · Oct 8, 2007

>>>but the best 120 easily-handheld camera I've ever used is my old circa-1950's Mamiya 120 folder.<<<

Don't you wanna sell it?

MAGNAchrom · Oct 8, 2007

I use a Mamiya 7II together with ISO 400 220 color negative film -- only need a tripod in low light. With a 50mm, 80mm, and 150mm, it makes for an exceptionally lightweight package. IMHO, the ideal travel camera.

Bandicoot · Oct 8, 2007

jgcull said:
Someone asked what I didn't like as well about shooting the Hassy. I move slowly with it on a tripod. I can't be a spontaneous as with my Nikons, obviously. I know there's an inherent difference between the two types. I just get more of what I like, subject wise, with a smaller on-the-run body and I'd like the best of both worlds in one. haha?

I probably should have said, I do like using it with the waist level finder better than with the (sorry) prism I have and I don't know how the grip might work with that. I'll have to check it out.

Isn't some of the spontaneity you get with your Nikons related to the eye-level, non-reversed, viewing? Maybe not, but it seems to me that the experience of using anything with a WLF is always going to be very different (not necessarily better or worse, just different) from using anything at eye-level.

The easiest to handhold, shoot 'free', and least vibration Medium Format cameras I have used are all rangefinders, and that would be my recommendation normally for someone who wants to do handheld MF. (I like the Fujicas, but the Mamiya and Bronica RFs are nice too.)

If you want hand-holdability and a WLF, then I'd go with a TLR. Losing the mirror slap and the FP shutter makes a big difference and you will find you can hand-hold at much lower speeds, as well as avoiding the 'tricky' mid-low speed problems you get with many SLRs around 1/30s. My favourite TLR is my old Rolleiflex 3.5. (I don't share Roger's antipathy to the Rollei's handling, but the rangefinders are certainly more ergonomic than it is. If you are used to hand-holding a 'blad with a WLF, the Rolleiflex will probably seem pretty ergonomic in comparison.)

These two suggestions are so different, I do suggest you give a try to both - a TLR and an MF rangefinder - because once you know which of these is nearer to your preference it will narrow your choices down enormously.

Peter

desertrat · Oct 8, 2007

Neck Strap for the Hasselblad

I second Eddym's suggestion to use a neckstrap stretched tight. It really helps steady the camera. I do this with my Kiev-80, almost the same size and shape as a Hasselblad. I can get sharp images regularly at 1/125 second, occasionally down to 1/60, and I got one at 1/30 that I thought was acceptable. Also, this camera doesn't have MLU. Sometimes I've had good results by crouching down with one knee on the ground, putting the camera on the knee that's up, and pressing it down on the knee with both hands while looking down into the finder.

David A. Goldfarb · Oct 9, 2007

The Bronica SQA with the winder grip and a prism feels more like a 35mm SLR than any other 6x6 SLR I've tried. I don't own one, but I picked up Bob Fowler's once (hey, where's he been lately?) at an APUG get-together, and it felt very natural in the hand. The camera is very light for MF, focuses quickly, and everything feels like it's in the right place. I can see why wedding shooters like them.

Another thing--do you have a focusing lever? I know Hassy has them. When I added one to my Bronica S2a, I couldn't go back to focusing without one. It really speeds things up.

Rolleiflexible · Oct 9, 2007

If my name doesn't give it away ... I second the Rolleiflex TLR recommendations.

David H. Bebbington said:
Medium-format SLRs tend to be made mainly with tripod use in mind

Not so with Rolleiflex TLRs. In fact, Rolleis can be a nuisance to shoot on a tripod. I have to stand on an egg crate when shooting in studio with my Rolleiflex on a tripod. But they nestle nicely in the hand, and the form is quite stable, and the lack of a mirror slapping around inside gives added poise for shooting at slow speeds.

Bandicoot said:
If you want hand-holdability and a WLF, then I'd go with a TLR. Losing the mirror slap and the FP shutter makes a big difference and you will find you can hand-hold at much lower speeds, as well as avoiding the 'tricky' mid-low speed problems you get with many SLRs around 1/30s.

Yes!

Roger Hicks said:
Absolutely right -- IF you can stand them. I find them incredibly unergonomic. I fully accept that I'm in a small minority on this and that most who use them, love them. I'd just enter the caveat that there are those who can fully understand what you say and why you say it, but still don't agree.

True again. A camera is a tool. Like any tool, one must work it to the point where it becomes transparent. Some cannot get there with a TLR. Roger does amazing things with Leicas. I am certain that, were he only to apply himself, he could become a Master of the Rolleiflex as well. And be a better man for having done so.

Rolleiflexes are an acquired taste. But once you figure them out, they become irreplaceable.

RFXB

Soeren · Oct 9, 2007

jgcull said:
>>>Go for what you want, not for what people tell you<<<

Yes, of course, in the end. But since I don't have the opportunity to see and try everything, I'd like to know what's available and which direction to look.

Someone asked what I didn't like as well about shooting the Hassy. I move slowly with it on a tripod. I can't be a spontaneous as with my Nikons, obviously. I know there's an inherent difference between the two types. I just get more of what I like, subject wise, with a smaller on-the-run body and I'd like the best of both worlds in one. haha?

I probably should have said, I do like using it with the waist level finder better than with the (sorry) prism I have and I don't know how the grip might work with that. I'll have to check it out. I see one for sale for a good price. I'll try that and go from there.

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer, all, and I'll look back in on all this info if I don't work it out satisfactorily.

Seems to me its a question of ergonomics and spontaneous photographing.
In your case I recon the ansver is a MF camera that handles like a 35mm camera be it a RF or a SLR. The only SLR I can think of is the Pentax 67(II) which lends itself to handheld photography. the rangefinders have been mentioned. The P67 has one big drawback, its a heavy beast.

Kind regards
Søren

sanking · Oct 9, 2007

MAGNAchrom said:
I use a Mamiya 7II together with ISO 400 220 color negative film -- only need a tripod in low light. With a 50mm, 80mm, and 150mm, it makes for an exceptionally lightweight package. IMHO, the ideal travel camera.

I agree with Michael that a Mamiya 7 outfit is the ideal travel camera. My own outfit consists of 43mm, 65mm, 80mm and 150mm, though I tend to use the wide angle lenses most of the time. The outfit is lightweight, all of it going easily into a small Lowepro mini-trekker, and the lenses are just outstanding.

My only regret is that I did not get this outfit some years go when Mamiya 7 first came out.

That said, if you are even more limited in terms of space and weight, the Fuji GA645Zi, which has a very sharp 55-90mm variable focus lens, offers a lot of versatility in a small package.

Sandy King

Roger Hicks · Oct 9, 2007

eddym said:
... is "unergonomic" really a word?

Dear Eddy,

Well, it's not in the second edition of the OED, but I'm too mean to subscribe to the on-line version. Google said there were 16,300 uses of it but then, there's the web for you: there are 196,000 uses of 'nucular', though again, many refer to Homer Simpson and various Bushes.

Your point is fully taken, but it's not just the WLF (which admittedly I do not like). Rather, it's the way that you have to throw the camera from hand to hand to operate the focus and wind on. I find a Hasselblad or other lens-mount-focusing camera easier.

I was trying to say that the Rollei is a camera in which I see much merit -- quiet, strong, unobtrusive, delivering superb quality -- while adding that even the best cameras in the world (in which I cheerfully include Rolleis) don't suit everyone. It's not just shooting style: it's the way your hands and brain work together (or in my case, with a TLR, don't).

A dear friend, now deceased, once suggested jokingly that I should be forced to use a Rollei for a month. His demise was nothing to do with the suggestion, but I have to say, I do have a violent but purely personal antipathy to the things.

Cheers,

Roger

Steve Smith · Oct 9, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Rather, it's the way that you have to throw the camera from hand to hand to operate the focus and wind on. I find a Hasselblad or other lens-mount-focusing camera easier.

I find my Rolleicord V easy to use but it does have the focus and wind on knobs on the same side (the right) which makes sense to me. I can understand that the Rolleiflexes need the focus on the other side as the wind on lever swings around a large arc but I have never worked out why most Rolleicords have the focus on the opposite side to the wind on because, as you say, you have to shift your grip of the body from one hand to the other.

Steve

P C Headland · Oct 9, 2007

I shoot with my MF cameras handheld more often than not.

The 6x6 and 6x9 folders are obviously very easy to handhold, with the Iskra being the easiest to handhold down to fairly low speeds. If I want to be able to shoot at a moment's notice, I set the hyperfocal distance, f11 and 1/film speed for shutter speed - basic point and shoot mode.

The Pentacon 6 is also very easy to handhold, being like a 35mm SLR on steroids. I even handhold the 4x5 (MPP Microtechnical) from time to time.

I'd agree that maybe using an L grip or flash bracket may help, but maybe it is the way you "feel" with that particular camera. Maybe a MF rangefinder would be better for what you are wanting to do. Is there any way you could borrow one to try?

Nick Zentena · Oct 9, 2007

This thread proves a person really needs to try a camera and live with it for awhile. What I like might not be what you like.

eddym · Oct 9, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
A dear friend, now deceased, once suggested jokingly that I should be forced to use a Rollei for a month. His demise was nothing to do with the suggestion, but I have to say, I do have a violent but purely personal antipathy to the things.

I wouldn't dream of making such a suggestion! But I will consider myself forewarned...

gr82bart · Oct 9, 2007

jgcull said:
Someone asked what I didn't like as well about shooting the Hassy. I move slowly with it on a tripod. I can't be a spontaneous as with my Nikons, obviously. I know there's an inherent difference between the two types. I just get more of what I like, subject wise, with a smaller on-the-run body and I'd like the best of both worlds in one. haha?

I probably should have said, I do like using it with the waist level finder better than with the (sorry) prism I have and I don't know how the grip might work with that. I'll have to check it out. I see one for sale for a good price. I'll try that and go from there.

Hi Janet,

I'm glad you're making this choice. I too shoot Nikons. I have several film and digital Nikon cameras. I like the Hassey, in part, because it feels like a 35mm camera in my hands. Additionally, I am surprised just how portable the camera is. I pack the camera and 3 lenses in a LowePro backback and travel with it pretty much everywhere.

Someone else mentioned that you're going to have to just use the camera for a while. It's such a subjective topic when it comes to the 'feel' of the camera. In terms of logic (to me), it makes sense that you should spend a bit on a winder and see how that goes first, before 'de-investing' in the brand entirely and re-investing in another.

Good luck and post some images in a gallery when you get a chance.

Regards, Art.

Rolleiflexible · Oct 9, 2007

Rolleiflexible said:
Roger does amazing things with Leicas. I am certain that, were he only to apply himself, he could become a Master of the Rolleiflex as well. And be a better man for having done so.

Roger Hicks said:
A dear friend, now deceased, once suggested jokingly that I should be forced to use a Rollei for a month. His demise was nothing to do with the suggestion, but I have to say, I do have a violent but purely personal antipathy to the things.

eddym said:
I wouldn't dream of making such a suggestion! But I will consider myself forewarned...

I already did! It's more important that Roger be shown the light than that I avoid the wrath of the Almighty.

Roger Hicks said:
Your point is fully taken, but it's not just the WLF (which admittedly I do not like). Rather, it's the way that you have to throw the camera from hand to hand to operate the focus and wind on. I find a Hasselblad or other lens-mount-focusing camera easier.

See, Roger, there's the issue: You don't have the technique right. Of course you wouldn't like the camera if you're tossing it from hand to hand after each exposure. That's like trying to cut steak with the back side of a knife, then complaining that the blade is dull.

Properly used, the Rolleiflex should rest on the ring and pinky fingers of both hands. Your right thumb presses on the knob of the winder, and rotates it between shots. Your right index finger rests on the shutter button. Your left thumb and index finger work the focus knob. You can shoot an entire roll of 120 film in 10-15 seconds like that without ever shifting the camera or lifting your eye from the eyepiece.

Once you hold the camera like this, and spend five minutes shooting a roll a film in this manner, you will "get" the Rolleiflex at last and see why it is such a well-designed camera.

RFXB

Cheryl Jacobs · Oct 9, 2007

First, I'll say I only read a few of the responses above.

I used a Hassey for a few months, and frankly, was well on the way to a wrist injury trying to use it handheld. It's just too heavy. Like you, Janet, I'm small boned with very small wrists, and after shooting even half a regular portrait session, it would hurt so badly that I'd have to slowly ease the camera down and take a break. Using a tripod or a monopod would have completely impeded my working style and ability to catch the decisive moment.

For me, the Bronica line is a much better fit. My results with the Bronica are every bit as good as with the Hassey, and I can work in the way I want to. I'm a big believer in using the equipment that suits the way you want to work -- NOT sacrificing the way you want to work to accommodate a piece of equipment. I personally would never consider using a flash because my camera is too heavy for me.

I suppose it comes down to this for me. My dress size is a 0 or 2. Let's say I have a designer dress that is simply beautiful, but it is a size 12. Would you tell me to eat a lot so that the dress fit me better, or perhaps stuff pillows into the dress? Or would you suggest that perhaps I should get a dress that fits me?

Silly analogy, maybe, but there's nothing so holy about a Hassey that you shouldn't consider selling it and getting something that works for you. Frankly, I can buy a whole lot of Bronica gear for the price of a Hassey body.

- CJ

Andrew Moxom · Oct 9, 2007

I use a hassy AND a Mamiya 6. For H/Held work the M6 is the only way to fly. No need to rotate the camera for portraits, and it is so quiet. The lenses are second to none, sharper than zeiss, and some say better than the M-7 versions. While I love both systems, I rarely use the Blad for H/Held work due to all of the complaints most have about the weight, noise etc. I know that Mamiya 6's and their lenses are getting as rare as rocking horse poo anymore and command really high used prices as a result. One camera that is kind of a sleeper is the Bronica Range Finder system. Again, quite hard to find, but a little smaller than a Mamiya 6 as it's a 645 format, and similar focal length lenses are available.

hand-held MF?

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