Halcyon... no alkali?

ruilourosa · May 18, 2021

Hello
I thought i give it a try..

The posted formula is:

Halcyon

DH2O (distilled water) 750ml
PPD (paraphenylenediamine) 7g
Sodium Sulfite 50g
Salycylic acid .5g
Ascorbic acid 3.5g
DH2O to 1 liter

I wonder if there is no need for an alkali?

another question: is it made to work always in a replenishing sistem?

Thanks!!!

R

relistan · May 18, 2021

ruilourosa said:
Hello
I thought i give it a try..

The posted formula is:

Halcyon

DH2O (distilled water) 750ml
PPD (paraphenylenediamine) 7g
Sodium Sulfite 50g
Salycylic acid .5g
Ascorbic acid 3.5g
DH2O to 1 liter

I wonder if there is no need for an alkali?

another question: is it made to work always in a replenishing sistem?

Thanks!!!

R

I haven't used this developer, but 50g of sodium sulfite is a reasonable alkali as well as all its other preservative and (with only 50g) mild solvency attributes.

EDIT: sorry missed your second question. You don't have to replenish any developers, but you won't get as much life out of it. I don't know how many rolls you would get from a non-replenished stock and I don't know how much time you'd need to add to each. I looked and there is a replenisher for this developer, and it has triethanolamine in it as well, which is a chelating agent for copper, but also an alkali.

Maybe someone who is an expert at Halcyon will reply.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 18, 2021

ruilourosa said:
another question: is it made to work always in a replenishing sistem?

You can use it without replenishment but for best results I was advised by Jay to use it replenished. I never got around to test it though. Would be interested in knowing your results from this developer.

Trask · May 18, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
You can use it without replenishment but for best results I was advised by Jay to use it replenished. I never got around to test it though. Would be interested in knowing your results from this developer.

Ditto. I use and like Jay’s 510-Pyro, and tried several times to like Obsidian Aqua, but couldn’t consistently get any reasonable film speed or shadow detail out of my negatives. I’d be very interested to hear what you think of Halcyon.

relistan · May 18, 2021

I believe that @Alan Johnson has been using Halcyon recently and might have an opinion

ruilourosa · May 18, 2021

Thanks for the answers.

I am new to ppd and its derivatives in bw but since i have a brand new darkroom i now need some more new things !

Getting ppd in Europe os challenging... Probably only through sigma...
I can get orthoPD but i think they are not interchangeable... Could someone clarify?

I need some help...

Thanks again

ruilourosa · May 19, 2021

I hope that someone that already used the developer could help too on clarifying i the usage and its results.

Thanks!!!

relistan · May 19, 2021

ruilourosa said:
I hope that someone that already used the developer could help too on clarifying i the usage and its results.

Thanks!!!

I suggest reading @Alan Johnson 's last two posts here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/halcyon-p-phenylenediamine-developer-test.173080/#post-2255067 as a starting place.

Alan Johnson · May 19, 2021

ruilourosa said:
I hope that someone that already used the developer could help too on clarifying i the usage and its results.

Thanks!!!

I am up to my 11th film processed in 1L of halcyon now 15 months old, kept under Tetenal Protectan spray, have found that starting by developing 10 min 20C and increasing the development time 5% for each subsequent film is about right. I don't really have an example of how grainy it is in real life as I tend to sharpen my pics to give the same grain but more definition of fine detail but FWIW here is an example:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51134583430/in/dateposted-public/
My grain test mentioned above suggested that it is the fine grain champ although giving half normal film speed in ,say, D-76, ie the same result as Jay Defehr obtained.
I need to repeat this grain test sometime as it is rather controversial.
As for a source of PPD (causes allergy) I cannot help as my supplier had it out of stock last time I looked.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 19, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
I need to repeat this grain test sometime as it is rather controversial.

How does Halcyon compare with other PPD based super fine grain developers like MCM100?

ruilourosa · May 19, 2021

Thats a good question

Alan Johnson · May 19, 2021

In the Film Developing Cookbook 2020 p87, Bill Troop notes that perhaps the the best classical PPD developers were the four Sease super fine grain plus Edwal 12 &20 and that Meritol type like MCM 100 had some vogue in Britain till the 1960s, p86, but may need modified alkali, p169. Others liked Harvey's or Germain etc. So there is IMO no defining old timer PPD developer to compare Halcyon with.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 19, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
IMeritol type like MCM 100 had some vogue in Britain till the 1960s, p86, but may need modified alkali, p169.

Was this a statement made based on actual use of MCM 100 on modern films? Interestingly, Formulary sells MCM 100 based on the original formula and I would be surprised if they're selling a developer that needs a modified alkali.

Your point on there being no defining old timer PPD developer to compare Halcyon with is well taken.

Alan Johnson · May 19, 2021

Quote, FDC 2020 p169:
"......unlike most PPD formulas, it [MCM100] can work with some modern films, due to its high alkalinity and the high energy of pyrocatechin ,which accounts for most of the development"
"It may be worth trying with modern films, even tabular films.The alkali system may need to be modified.......MCM 100 is said to offer normal emulsion speed...."
FDC does sometimes qualify remarks in this way, not making statements of fact.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 19, 2021

Alan, since you might be the only person to have tested both Halcyon and the Swedish Ascorbate developer, any thoughts on tinkering Halcyon using the idea of a Borax-Glycerol buffering to get a long lasting stable developer? Any reason why Borax-Glycerol buffering might not work well for Halcyon?

Alan Johnson · May 19, 2021

If you are referring to making a concentrate of Halcyon in Glycerol, the possibility would appear to depend on the solubility of sodium sulfite in glycerol.
https://www.largeformatphotography....?71010-Halcyon-superfine-grain-film-developer
But don't forget that most of Gainer's formulae were to be diluted 1:50 which would require 2500 g/L sodium sulfite.
So any glycerol concentrate of sulfite is unlikely to get much dilution possibility. Gainer's idea of glycerol was never investigated much.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 19, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
If you are referring to making a concentrate of Halcyon in Glycerol, the possibility would appear to depend on the solubility of sodium sulfite in glycerol.
https://www.largeformatphotography....?71010-Halcyon-superfine-grain-film-developer
But don't forget that most of Gainer's formulae were to be diluted 1:50 which would require 2500 g/L sodium sulfite.
So any glycerol concentrate of sulfite is unlikely to get much dilution possibility. Gainer's idea of glycerol was never investigated much.

No, not concentrate. I was thinking of this:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/swedish-ascorbic-acid-developer.127585/

Alan Johnson · May 19, 2021

The Swedish patent would have expired about 20 years before Xtol came on the market and I presume that if Kodak labs had thought that the addition of glycerol-borax conferred any benefit it would be in Xtol, but it is not.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · May 20, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
The Swedish patent would have expired about 20 years before Xtol came on the market and I presume that if Kodak labs had thought that the addition of glycerol-borax conferred any benefit it would be in Xtol, but it is not.

Not necessarily. Glycerol being a liquid might not have gelled well with the design and production of a powder developer like XTol. Anyway, I'll take your comment as a nay for Glycerol-Borax as you have first hand experience with the Swedish developer.

Halcyon... no alkali?

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