Gumover VDB?

Monophoto · Jul 5, 2006

I've been trying to teach myself some alternative processes, starting with VDB and gum. My experience with VDB has been very mixed - in general, the contrast is quite low, but occasionally, I am able to produce something that I am reasonably proud of.

Inspired by experts like Scootermm and Kerik, I have also tried to add gum layers to the VDBs. The results have all been failures. I seems as though the application of the gum layer itself causes a further reduction in the inherent low contrast of the VDB.

In addition, I have found that the gum doesn't want to clear completely.

My questions: are these "problems" part of the mystique of gum that one has to perservere to overcome, or are they inherent characteristics of gumover VDB that makes that combination not practical?

And why is it that my fingers keep wanting to type "bumover"?

scootermm · Jul 5, 2006

Monophoto said:
Inspired by experts like Scootermm and Kerik, I have also tried to add gum layers to the VDBs.

whoa whoa whoa now.... no need to insult Kerik so.

Id hardly call myself an expert in much of anything. Especially anything related to alt process.
I have attempted VDB with Gum Over layers. Didnt seem to like each other. Not sure... maybe its the chemical make up of the combining of processes... but just wouldnt work for some reason.
One thing I will suggest is trying pt/pd printing. You would really be suprised how "financially" workable it is. There is so much control you have over the prints, and so much ability to adjust that control for the gum overs that will eventually be combined with it. Plus youll find that negatives you thought you couldnt print in straight pt/pd will work wonderfully with 2 or even 3 layers of Gum Bichrom (or so Ive noticed)

Just my thoughts. Im not knocking VDBs. I still make them and love the tone and final prints. But they need such tailored negatives to make a spot on nice print Ive found.

hope some of that helps.

Lukas Werth · Jul 5, 2006

Not advisable. Dichromate is a silver bleach, so the (untoned) VDB-image is likely to get bleached (I experienced this once with salt prints)

donbga · Jul 5, 2006

Lukas Werth said:
Not advisable. Dichromate is a silver bleach, so the (untoned) VDB-image is likely to get bleached (I experienced this once with salt prints)

What if the VDB or Kallitype was toned in palladium?

Lukas Werth · Jul 5, 2006

donbga said:
What if the VDB or Kallitype was toned in palladium?

Could work. I mean to try this with kallitypes, but did not get round to it. I never did VDB, but with Kallitypes the silver really seems to be substituted by the noble metal - a fully toned image can no more be bleached.

A problem I foresee is registration. Kallitypes, as I know them, are best printed with bone-dry paper, and require lengthy baths afterwards. I have so far not printed kallitypes on gelatinized paper, so I don't know whether this works. If it doesn't, it might be necessary to seize the paper with the kallitype already printed on it, which would further compromise registration. The solution: fix the paper on a glass pane, which, however, is quite time-consuming.

What works beautifully is to overprint New Chrysotypes: they like gelatinized paper, and, for images with more print-out and dubdued colours, like higher humidities.

donbga · Jul 5, 2006

Lukas Werth said:
A problem I foresee is registration. Kallitypes, as I know them, are best printed with bone-dry paper, and require lengthy baths afterwards.

Pre-shrink, the paper.

It shouldn't be a problem doing gum over kallitypes. After the kalli is printed size the paper and then do the gum overs.

This is more or less what I do for gum over palladium, so assuming the palladium toner displaces the silver then it should work.

Lukas Werth · Jul 5, 2006

donbga said:
Pre-shrink, the paper.

Pre-shrinking is a must, of course. In my experience it is still worthwhile to pay attention to the humidity of the paper. But you may be right - I hope so, because, as I mentioned, I mean to try it.

donbga · Jul 5, 2006

Lukas Werth said:
Pre-shrinking is a must, of course. In my experience it is still worthwhile to pay attention to the humidity of the paper. But you may be right - I hope so, because, as I mentioned, I mean to try it.

FWIW, I try to maintain 50% ambient, but still there are times when I can't get perfect regiatration, which brings me to this question(s):

Keith Taylor who does those marvelous tri-color gums adheres the printing paper with dry mount tissue to aluminun sheets (if my information is correct).

Has anyone tried this method? and if so how does one register the image? With pins?

Thanks,

RobertP · Jul 5, 2006

Don, Go to the Bostick and Sullivan web site. Go to technical papers. Scroll down to Sullivan's Substrate Gum Method. Hope this helps

donbga · Jul 5, 2006

RobertP said:
Don, Go to the Bostick and Sullivan web site. Go to technical papers. Scroll down to Sullivan's Substrate Gum Method. Hope this helps

Yes I've read that article, I was hoping to get some info from someone that may have done this already, such as how to make the pins work in a vacuum easel, tips on pin placement, etc.

Thanks,

donbga · Jul 5, 2006

RobertP said:
Don, Go to the Bostick and Sullivan web site. Go to technical papers. Scroll down to Sullivan's Substrate Gum Method. Hope this helps

BTW, if you read the article, in the last paragraph or so Sullivan mentions,
"I like to remount the print, after it is trimmed to the image area, on to a piece of the same paper it was made on. I had one student who had access to an etching press and she use a piece of plastic and made a platemark in the paper with the etching press and then mounted the print down in the platemark area and then overmatted it. This made an elegant presentation."

If you have a vacuum easel you can create a faux platemark. This kind of presentation does look very elegant.

RobertP · Jul 6, 2006

Don. Just grind the registration pins down as Dick mentions then use a sheet of clear mylar over the negative to make up the rest of the registration pin height. I am curious to see if you print on a larger sheet of paper and just dry mount the outer area, say a couple of inches away from the image area but still have about 3-4 inches dry mounted all the way around. That way once the sheet is removed you could trim the dry mounted area off and it wouldn't be on the back of the image area. This would eliminate the need to dry mount it to another sheet of paper. Just a few thoughts about it. I may give it a try.

donbga · Jul 6, 2006

RobertP said:
Don. Just grind the registration pins down as Dick mentions then use a sheet of clear mylar over the negative to make up the rest of the registration pin height.

Two things here: Surely Dick didn't mean Mylar. I've never seen Mylar more than a few thousands <sp?> of an inch thick. If one grinds the pins, that would need to be done with care, I suppose. Never the less using a piece of lexan or glass would probably work just as well, especially when using a vacuum frame. Ithink I would prefer glass since it won't absorb UV like some plastics.

RobertP said:
I am curious to see if you print on a larger sheet of paper and just dry mount the outer area, say a couple of inches away from the image area but still have about 3-4 inches dry mounted all the way around. That way once the sheet is removed you could trim the dry mounted area off and it wouldn't be on the back of the image area. This would eliminate the need to dry mount it to another sheet of paper. Just a few thoughts about it. I may give it a try.

That won't work. the entire sheet needs to be immobile to help maintain the registration due to the expansion and contraction of the paper from moisture. Dick's suggestion to dry mount to another sheet of paper was just that a suggestion, though not a bad one, it does add more work to the whole process.

At any rate I'll start looking for the pins locally, this is something I've been meaning to try for years. It would be great to make and finish gum overs in a day.

Also one will have to have a means of supporting the print during development and I have a concern about being able to clear the print of dichromate when making gum overs since the amount of Am. di. used for those is so much more than used for straight gum.

John_Brewer · Jul 6, 2006

donbga said:
If you have a vacuum easel you can create a faux platemark. This kind of presentation does look very elegant.

Thanks for the tip Don, I like that idea much.

J

RobertP · Jul 6, 2006

Don. In the article were talking about, under the paragraph "Exposure" Sullivan states that you may find the pins interfere with the print frame. This problem may be solved by: 1. placing a thick piece of mylar over the print to bring it up to the height of the pins. 2. grind down the pins. I don't know how much UV light clear mylar blocks but I wouldn't think it is anymore than lexan or glass for that matter. I've seen clear mylar 1/8" thick before. As far as mounting around the image. I was thinking in case of gum over pt/pd. Once the paper has been processed in pt/pd the image area dosen't change anywhere near as much as the paper does before processing. I just have a hard time putting dry mount tissue on a platinum print. Keep in mind once you take it off the substrate you have a print with a lot of stickum on the back so you have to mount it to something, be it another sheet of the same paper or a mount board. This stickum could also be a problem if you are using a translucent paper which not many do for gum I'm told. Others doing gum overs don't even dry mount and their registrations seem to be fine. It will be interesting to see what you come up with. Keep me posted.

RobertP · Jul 6, 2006

Don, The reason I'm trying to find a way around drymounting the image area is I want to try this on a swiss made paper, Opaline. It prints beautifully in pt/pd and I want to try some gumovers with it. But it is a very translucent paper and I don't know what the effects of the dry mount tissue will be. I'll let you know how the first runs go.

donbga · Jul 6, 2006

RobertP said:
Don, The reason I'm trying to find a way around drymounting the image area is I want to try this on a swiss made paper, Opaline. It prints beautifully in pt/pd and I want to try some gumovers with it. But it is a very translucent paper and I don't know what the effects of the dry mount tissue will be. I'll let you know how the first runs go.

I know from reading his posts over the years Kerik Kouklis dry mounts vellum type papers to another sheet of paper for presentation so I don't think there would be a problem doing that.

From my experience of printing on vellum myself I think you might find doing gum overs with this paper very difficult. But that is just a guess on my part since I've never tried it. Vellum papers might not make a good choice for straight gum or gum overs if the paper surface is too smooth. One would also need to consider or discover how the paper expands and contracts as some papers will change shape in one direction more than the the other even with pre-shrinking. Additionally it has been my experience that as the negative size increases the problem of re-registration increases.

Good luck and let us know how it works.

donbga · Jul 6, 2006

John_Brewer said:
Thanks for the tip Don, I like that idea much.

J

I will also add, that making a plate mark this way has it's draw backs. If you don't make the same sized prints all of the time you will need to have various sized pieces of glass or plexi to make the plate mark.

donbga · Jul 6, 2006

donbga said:
I know from reading his posts over the years Kerik Kouklis dry mounts vellum type papers to another sheet of paper for presentation so I don't think there would be a problem doing that.

After posting I did recall that Kerik mentioned that he uses dry mount tissue purchased from Light Impressions since it has a neutral white color which doesn't conflict with the color of vellums he uses. I'm not sure what color the Opalline vellum is so I can understand that using dry mount tissue may be a show stopper.

Lukas Werth · Jul 7, 2006

Regarding registration: I once even wrote an article touching this topic.

Generally, when printing 8x10, when I print up to three, may be four layers, I just use pre-shunk paper, fix the neg first with pins in order to re-use the pinholes, and then with adhesive tape.

For more layers, or larger sizes, I find registration necessary. I know the description on the B+S website, but for a reason which I do not now remember, i couldn't make much use of it. I use glass- or aluminum sheets with holes drilled into to receive the needles at the corners of the neg, and I fix the paper with bone glue or starch, materials that keep the paper fixed in cold water but become soft in hot water.

Keith Taylor · Jul 19, 2006

donbga said:
Yes I've read that article, I was hoping to get some info from someone that may have done this already, such as how to make the pins work in a vacuum easel, tips on pin placement, etc.

Don,
I have a registration system consisting of a punch and pins made by Ternes Burton Dead Link Removed. The punch is strong enough to punch a sheet of aluminum so the pins can be pushed through from the back and the whole assembly is thin enough at just over 1/8th" not to cause any problems in my 33"x43" vacuum frame. I usually have to extend the distance between the pins and the image with film offcuts to get the placement of the image on the paper just right, so the distance between the pins and the image is always at least 4-5". This helps to ensure the film is always tight against the paper. With an image that would sit closer to the pins, I would think that full contact could be a problem.
The paper is mounted using Fusion 4000, which is archival, and afterwards I remove the print from the aluminum and remount it onto another sheet of the same paper.
Keith.

donbga · Jul 19, 2006

Keith Taylor said:
donbga said:

Yes I've read that article, I was hoping to get some info from someone that may have done this already, such as how to make the pins work in a vacuum easel, tips on pin placement, etc.

Don,
I have a registration system consisting of a punch and pins made by Ternes Burton Dead Link Removed. The punch is strong enough to punch a sheet of aluminum so the pins can be pushed through from the back and the whole assembly is thin enough at just over 1/8th" not to cause any problems in my 33"x43" vacuum frame. I usually have to extend the distance between the pins and the image with film offcuts to get the placement of the image on the paper just right, so the distance between the pins and the image is always at least 4-5". This helps to ensure the film is always tight against the paper. With an image that would sit closer to the pins, I would think that full contact could be a problem.
The paper is mounted using Fusion 4000, which is archival, and afterwards I remove the print from the aluminum and remount it onto another sheet of the same paper.
Keith.

Click to expand...

Thanks very much Keith. May I ask how thick or what guage your aluminum is and where do you source it?

Thanks,

Don

Keith Taylor · Jul 19, 2006

donbga said:
Keith Taylor said:

May I ask how thick or what guage your aluminum is and where do you source it?
Don

Click to expand...

It's 1/16th" thick and I just buy it from the hardware store. To support it in the water (my sheets are around 24"x36") and keep it from sinking, I use six 35mm metal spirals.

Keith.

donbga · Jul 20, 2006

Keith Taylor said:
donbga said:

It's 1/16th" thick and I just buy it from the hardware store. To support it in the water (my sheets are around 24"x36") and keep it from sinking, I use six 35mm metal spirals.

Keith.

Click to expand...

Thanks Keith.

Any chance you could post a pic of the pin registerd aluminum, paper, film sandwhich sometime. I'm curious to see what it may look like. Thanks again for the link.

Gumover VDB?

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