Professional-grade and Kodak-recommended pH testing devices are somewhat unrealistic for my home use. That leaves me to: A) ignore the pH altogether, or B) do my best with what's available.
@Mr Bill Ahhhh, thank you! That makes sense now. I can likely ask my local lab if they have a control sample. If not, I'll get the kit. I get it now. Thanks for your patience.Of course it's possible that your home brew may come in right on the money, and your inexpensive meter might read properly. But if they don't... you could be off on a wild goose chase. Or maybe not.
I can likely ask my local lab if they have a control sample.
Woa, genius. We are on good terms. thanks for the idea!So if they are willing to tap out of the developer overflow line, and you are willing to deliver doughnuts periodically... well maybe you won't even need to mix developer.
If you use the clearing bath I would use a minimum of 1 minute wash after the bleach, 1 minute clearing bath (10 grams/liter of sodium sulfite), and another wash of 1 minute before the fixer. All washes are running-water.Thank you for being patient with me. I assume the 5 minute wash is under running water? If so, will a clearing bath help reduce wash time? I'm fine skipping the clearing bath mixture and washing only, but also happy to save water where I can. Thanks a ton!
This all makes 100% sense. Thanks a tonIf you use the clearing bath I would use a minimum of 1 minute wash after the bleach, 1 minute clearing bath (10 grams/liter of sodium sulfite), and another wash of 1 minute before the fixer. All washes are running-water.
For stop/clear bath and second clear bath I would mix with distilled water. I also mix the ferricyanide bleach with distilled water. My fixer is made from regular Kodak C-41 fixer concentrate and I just mix with tap water.
Nowadays I have a nice pH meter, but I've also used cheap ones. At around pH 10, the cheap one was quite good actually. Definitely not perfect, but usable and far better than nothing if that's all what your budget permits. It was at even higher pH values, like ~12 for E6 CD that the readings were iffy. Apart from that, the cheap meters may also have inconsistent quality control, making some units more accurate, durable, etc than others of the same modelI found the pen type pH meters quite problematic and inaccurate at higher pH's around 10. I don't recommend them.
I have been looking for an inexpensive meter that comes with calibration option. It's a little more for that option, but I am still looking.Brother, the pH meter is not that expensive,
What is the problem in purchasing a cheap class device,
I bought a $ 12 Chinese device (which is a wide pen) ,, and it was working fine ,, only the problem I had was that it fell several times over the tiles and it was not working disciplined and I bought another device like him and he kept working with me More than 6 months ago - it was only destroyed due to the oil stains caused by the developer (CD2), and that dilemma was later solved by using this method of cold pressing this developer in a separate cup before mixing.
This cheap device comes with a small package powder 4 and another 7.1.
You calibrate it before working once and then it becomes excellent for a long time and works successfully.
Thank you. I believe I'm left to decide if I should ignore the pH or do my best with what I can afford, taking into consideration the potential for inaccuracy. I believe this thread has been excellent for preparing me either way. Chances are: if the distilled water I use is good and I stick to the formula, whatever comes out will be great for my home use for the foreseeable future.I found the pen type pH meters quite problematic and inaccurate at higher pH's around 10. I don't recommend them.
While there are many technical and methodological issues involved in pH measurement, don't let yourself be discouraged from it altogether. There are pH meters in the $20-30 range (shipped from China) that seem to work quite OK. Maybe they're still off a bit in an absolute sense, but at least they will allow some degree of consistency in your work. Heck, even one of the $8-10 pen-type meters that I denounced may be helpful. I'd argue it's still better than nothing at all.if I should ignore the pH or do my best with what I can afford
Cheers--thank you for following up! I'm sorry, my reply wasn't clear: I do plan to get an inexpensive meter, maybe not the cheapest. This thread has been incredibly helpful in teaching me about pH management with realistic resources and realistic expectations. Thank you.While there are many technical and methodological issues involved in pH measurement, don't let yourself be discouraged from it altogether. There are pH meters in the $20-30 range (shipped from China) that seem to work quite OK. Maybe they're still off a bit in an absolute sense, but at least they will allow some degree of consistency in your work. Heck, even one of the $8-10 pen-type meters that I denounced may be helpful. I'd argue it's still better than nothing at all.
Yes, it does, even considering all the limitations. By the same token, I'm not entirely sure what the precision (not resolution) of my thermometer is, I don't precisely know what difference half a degree might have, but I don't start developing anything without taking a measurement. Sure, there's a margin of error in the readings, some tolerances, but they're still useful. If I had exactly the same chemicals that the formula creator uses, I'd likely not be very worried about pH. But I don't have exactly the same chemicals, mine might be slightly less pure, so I have to check. Besides, when using a formula, some ingredients may not be available. Chelating agents aren't always widely available, some are basically unobtainable in small quantities. You'd be surprised how much excluding, or substituting such an agent affects pH. And since I've already mentioned E6 CD, and the difficulty getting a correct reading with a cheap meter at this pH level (~12), it still helped me find out that something is wrong with my chemicals. The reading was way below what it should be, even considering questionable precision. The colour balance of the slides confirmed this. Using a pH meter, even one that gives faulty readings, but consistently so can help.... My question then is: Does pH-metering then make sense at all?
Concerning pH-meters, has none of you read what Serg spent on meters and probes? And still has uncertainties of what he actually is reading.
.And he is a seasoned guy. (To stay with our own vocabulary...)
From experience: yes, it does.My question then is: Does pH-metering then make sense at all?
My question then is: Does pH-metering then make sense at all?
I didn't advise you about anything. The OP is interested in scratch mixing his chemicals. You proposed him to try taking a reading from ready made chemicals. While this idea may have merit, it's an added expense to a possibly already tight budget. And since the OP has stated that he needs some guidance, I mentioned that a buffer solution could provide a good reference point, especially considering that a pH 10 buffer is basically at the same pH level C41 developer would be. And these buffers would be essential and it wouldn't be wise to take any readings without calibrating his meter. So, I'm not advising you, I'm trying to help the OP, as someone who must scratch mix everything, because I don't really have an alternative.... Previously user Anon Ymous advised me to calibrate the meter with pH buffers (as though I didn't know this)...
I didn't advise you about anything.
@Mr Bill Instead of buying commercial chemical and see what the pH meter reads, it would be better to use the buffer solutions that you need anyway with a pH meter. Usual buffer solutions are at pH 4, 7 and 10, the last one being very close to C41 developer pH. Using a pH meter without calibration with a buffer solution isn't very wise anyway.
... I mentioned that a buffer solution could provide a good reference point, especially considering that a pH 10 buffer is basically at the same pH level C41 developer would be.
@Mr Bill For the last time, since it is getting way off topic and doesn't contribute anything to this thread, I never said you didn't calibrate your pH meter, nor that you don't know how to do, or whatever.
Yes, I get that different electrodes may give different readings, this is a valid point. But there comes a point where the costs involved for this kind of top notch electrode and meter defeats the purpose of taking this path. As for the lab processed film being a point of reference in theory it is, but at this point, with very low throughput being the norm rather than the exception, it can be of questionable quality. I even have the curve to prove it. Obviously, not all labs have this problem, but one needs to find a lab that uses fresh chemicals and has quality control a top priority. Not necessarily an easy task.
Thanks for your time.
Yes, I have values and tolerances.
For example, one developer is 10.00 +/- 0.03, another is 10.25 +/- 0.05. Bleach is 6.5 +/- 0.5. I'm testing a few mixes, so I won't list all the values, but save for 1 or 2, I have them all.
I will be starting with distilled water (checking for 7.0 pH however possible), but cannot fully rely on distilled water for every instance in the future.
I'm asking
1) how to adjust: developer pH up or down
2) How crucial is the stop bath pH and how to adjust?
ECN stop - sulfuric acid based
C41 stop - acetic based (can I use vinegar or Kodak indicator? I don't have a "value" for this, only the recipe)
3) How crucial is the bleach pH and how to adjust:
Potassium Ferricyanide + Sodium Bromide
4) how crucial is the fix pH and how to adjust?
5) Tangential question: do you have a recommendation for a clearing wash other than water, and if so, does it have critical pH to adjust?
Thanks again
I asked my lab about checking pH as a control, but he doesn't have a meter, either. I forget the name of his processing machine, but he does have a densiometer and uses control strips religiously which always check out. He said we could erad his pH anytime, but I won't know the exact read.The OP lives in a place where the chems should be readily available, and is even on friendly terms with a local processing lab.
Novice to home color developing, yes. Otherwise, I've been shooting still and motion for decades and processing my own B&W just as long. I'm very mechanically and technically minded and competent. If you need your engine rebuilt or home remodeled, I got you. Same with video editing. I know those skills aren't directly corollary to mastering C-41 chemistry, but I do have what it takes to understand the realities with a little guidance. You've been very helpful in instilling caution with regards to cheap meters and willy-nilly adjustments with said meters. Thank you.So I want to make sure the OP recognizes this possibility, and does not blindly adjust pH to what seems like the correct value.
This is new information to me. Thanks a ton for sharing it. Your whole comment is concise and informative. Thank you.The developer has a carbonate that buffers it to the right pH, so you can adjust that, but the pH measurement is just a check that you did things right. It should be right if you did the formula right.
Wow, this is the first time I've read definitively: 'don't use B&W rapid fix.' I hate to open a can of worms, but why not? Is it pH alone? My initial research led me to believe the fix pH isn't crucial to the final image.I wouldn't use black and white Ilford Rapid Fixer for color.
Thanks - I plan to order pH 10 buffers. Are you saying I should also heat it to development temp? Thanks a lot!It is important to use fresh buffer solutions to calibrate, and the pH 10 solution will go acid on you in a few days.
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