Greenish negatives with strong magenta cast

lorenzoalinari · Jan 12, 2022

Hi everyone,
I recently developed a roll of Gold and it turned out a complete mess. Negs have a greenish base and there are harsh magenta spots around everywhere. A small amount of film border is even (almost) completely orange as if it fixed without developing. Scans came out dark and green.

My C41 chemicals are 6 months old and I successfully developed 13 rolls with them (not including this one). While I was extremely careful in storage by keeping bottles filled to the brim squeezing them and in a cool and dark place this is a clear indication of a need of replacement, as it was to be expected after such time. I have separate bleach and fixer and no stop bath.

Some examples:

Question is, what exactly caused this? I have the feeling the fixer may be exhausted as it took quite a while to completely fix a little piece of exposed film, though the orange part makes me think the developer did almost nothing there. Is this the action of both developer and fixer? Or it's a common thing to happen when the fixer expires? After all, rolls I developed previously came out fine. Does bleach expire?

Thanks!

Donald Qualls · Jan 12, 2022

Are you using a kit with blix, or do you have separate bleach and fixer? That looks like uneven silver retention, as a first guess. Look on the right end of the large single frame above -- I see a full dye set there, but then the green streaks in mid-frame.

Can you mix fresh bleach and fixer or blix and run the film through those steps again?

lorenzoalinari · Jan 12, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Are you using a kit with blix, or do you have separate bleach and fixer? That looks like uneven silver retention, as a first guess. Look on the right end of the large single frame above -- I see a full dye set there, but then the green streaks in mid-frame.

Can you mix fresh bleach and fixer or blix and run the film through those steps again?

Yes as I said bleach and fixer are separate. Unfortunately I don't have fresh chemicals to mix, I will buy another kit shortly. Thing is, I wanted to avoid mixing concentrates if I can still use something

Donald Qualls · Jan 12, 2022

If you suspect fixer, the first thing to try is refixing in B&W rapid fixer. Ideally, you'd use a neutral fixer rather than the usual acid fixer.

lorenzoalinari · Jan 12, 2022

Sadly I'm missing that one too... I first got into development (and shooting film) with this C41 kit

Donald Qualls · Jan 12, 2022

Hmm. Then I guess there's nothing else for it than to try rebleaching and refixing when you next mix a new kit. FWIW, you can do these steps at room temperature, they just take a lot longer (especially bleach).

However, since it's virtually certain you will eventually want to develop B&W, you might order in a bottle of TF-4 or just get some Flexicolor fixer (cheaper than B&W fixer, last time I bought it) to use for both. Non-kit chemicals are generally much cheaper than the same chemicals in the kit, with the down side being that they come in larger bottles. I'm currently using fixer that was stored in the original bottle (part of the time in a shed with neither heat nor insulation) for fourteen years.

lorenzoalinari · Jan 12, 2022

Holy cow that's a long time.
Actually yes, I was thinking about starting BW development, though I have read about people highly discouraging using the same fixer for both color and bw since the two leave residuals that could harm the other, and also something about having to rebalance pH to use C41 fixer with bw and vice versa. I know this is marginal, as pictures will still come out with virtually no difference, but I really want to get the most out of my chemicals' life also because they are way more expensive and difficult to acquire in Italy. Flexicolor and TF-4 aren't sold here (the first sells for 60-90EUR) and you can't really buy C41 fixer outside of kits, which cost 30-40EUR

lantau · Jan 12, 2022

lorenzoalinari said:
Holy cow that's a long time.
Actually yes, I was thinking about starting BW development, though I have read about people highly discouraging using the same fixer for both color and bw since the two leave residuals that could harm the other, and also something about having to rebalance pH to use C41 fixer with bw and vice versa. I know this is marginal, as pictures will still come out with virtually no difference, but I really want to get the most out of my chemicals' life also because they are way more expensive and difficult to acquire in Italy. Flexicolor and TF-4 aren't sold here (the first sells for 60-90EUR) and you can't really buy C41 fixer outside of kits, which cost 30-40EUR

Unfortunately there aren't that many, but a decent neutral fix is Rollei RXN. I don't know if that is available in Italy. I buy the 5L container. You can use it for anything, just keep separate working solutions for C41 and b/w.

C41 fix can contain Ammoniumthiocyanate. It speeds up the fixing, but can make the emulsion swell. Most modern films (and all C41 films) are sufficiently hardened to prevent that. But if you use a more obscure b/w film with insufficient hardening it is a theoretical possibility that it could suffer some damage due to the softness.

Donald Qualls · Jan 12, 2022

Wow. Here, Flexicolor will cost just over US$100 for developer, bleach, fixer, and developer starter, and when used replenished, a 5L kit will last a couple years (maybe longer) (or you can use it like a kit, mix up one liter bottles with the correct amount of water and starter, and use them for X rolls). In Europe, I hear the Fuji-Hunt is more available, but I'm not sure they offer it in 5L kits any more.

lantau · Jan 12, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Wow. Here, Flexicolor will cost just over US$100 for developer, bleach, fixer, and developer starter, and when used replenished, a 5L kit will last a couple years (maybe longer) (or you can use it like a kit, mix up one liter bottles with the correct amount of water and starter, and use them for X rolls). In Europe, I hear the Fuji-Hunt is more available, but I'm not sure they offer it in 5L kits any more.

Fuji Hunt has a replenisher for (mini) labs with low turnover. It has a higher replenishment rate (LORR is the last thing you want to use in that situation, or at home when replenishing) and the product unit is for mixing only 5L of replenisher. I may consider using that when I replace my Flexicolor. Or maybe I will try Tetenal Monoline C41, if my RA4 Monoline proves to be durable.

The problem with Fuji is that you will spend a fortune on a massive box of C41 starter. Of course if we could get an EU colour user group with a handful of users going here we could share that and other things in larger units.

lorenzoalinari · Jan 12, 2022

I tried re-bleaching and fixing a strip of negatives and the base is now somewhat more orange but still greenish and the magenta cast has gone nowhere.
Since I usually don't pay much attention at bringing them at exactly 38C (unlike developer) but more at "somehow more than room temperature" I heated them more and let the film in the tank for a really long time compared to the standard minute of my kit. As the base changed color it is definitely a bleach/fixer issue, and also unacceptable since I have always been good following the standard times without a very strict temperature control. I will just buy everything again and throw away developer and fixer. Last doubt though, do I need to also throw away my bleach? Or it lasts more?

Donald Qualls · Jan 12, 2022

Bleach likes oxygen, so six months in the bottle shouldn't be a problem, and it doesn't exhaust rapidly, either.

One way to test it is to take a developed B&W negative (or exposed, developed black, leader strip) and drop it into the bleach. Over the normal process time, it should turn milky and lose all of the black. Can't do this with correctly processed color negatives, unfortunately.

sillo · Jan 12, 2022

I believe you want TF-5 and not TF-4 for color use. TF-5 is neutral.

koraks · Jan 12, 2022

lorenzoalinari said:
My C41 chemicals are 6 months old and I successfully developed 13 rolls with them

Ok, so that's fishy, but not the only cause of your problems.
First guess would be prior contamination of a development tank or mixing beaker, given the impressive swirl pattern. Another possibility is a major agitation issue (manual agitation started way too late into development) possibly combined with developer activity problems.
There's also a more minor chance of the magenta/green swirls being light fogging of a partially curled roll of film, with the excessive density throwing off the scanner in such a way that any of the other colors are subdued. Such are the woes of scanning, of course.

In any case you may find that C41 works best if it's done by the book. RA4 is more forgiving, C41 is pretty easy if you work consistently, with good/fresh chemistry and within reasonable bounds of the layed out processing parameters.

Too bad about this film but it's beyond repair, live and learn!

Greenish negatives with strong magenta cast

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