Green Tint in Fuji Crystal Archive Base

bob100684 · Jan 18, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
IDK. You will have to ask Fuji! Sorry, but that was the report. Some people have even said there is no such thing as CA II.

PE

I can indeed confirm there is CA II, our boxes come labeled as such.

Photo Engineer · Jan 18, 2010

Some people reported that they had to use a nearly zero or cyan filter pack with it and others report fog of varying types with Kodak chemistry. There are posts here to that effect.

PE

RellikJM · Jan 18, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
I have posted here before that CAII paper, released in 2006 or thereabouts, takes a different process than the old CA or Endura paper. Fuji changed the emulsions.

So, to test this, I suggest that you just rinse, blix, wash and dry a sheet or strip of your CA paper and see how green it is. If it is still green, it may be the tint of the paper, but if it is white, then the problem is either fog or the developer. If so, I suggest you change to the latest Fuji Hunt kit and process recomendations.

PE

Fuji lists under #4 processing that CAII can be processed in the RA-4 process.

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/AF3-190U_CATypeII.pdf

pentaxuser · Jan 18, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
There are 3 antifoggants for color paper that handle fog layerwise.

The antifoggant for the cyan layer is phenyl mercapto tetrazole used at 1 - 2 mg / liter of developer. IDK if it works on Fuji paper.

PE

PE I take it that that such antifoggants aren't generally available unlike say benzotriazole for B&W fogged paper so in reality fogged RA4 paper is throw-away paper?

My first thought is that it would be nice if such antifoggants were available but maybe even if they were then the effort of diagnosing which layer was fogged and the cost of the antifoggant might make it more trouble than it is worth?

I just don't know. Your indulgence is craved. I am UK based to probably complicate things.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Jan 18, 2010

RellikJM said:
Fuji lists under #4 processing that CAII can be processed in the RA-4 process.

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/AF3-190U_CATypeII.pdf

I am merely reporting what Fuji presented at the conference. They did indicate that by changing times (shortening them severely IIRC), usable results could be obtained. I suggest that in spite of what they say in several different places, we consider that there may be some problem, or may have been some problem due to the number of complaints about it at the time, and the comment above about "wandering results".

So, in spite of what any manufacturer says, I have to factor into things what is going on in the real world.

PE

Photo Engineer · Jan 18, 2010

pentaxuser said:
PE I take it that that such antifoggants aren't generally available unlike say benzotriazole for B&W fogged paper so in reality fogged RA4 paper is throw-away paper?

My first thought is that it would be nice if such antifoggants were available but maybe even if they were then the effort of diagnosing which layer was fogged and the cost of the antifoggant might make it more trouble than it is worth?

I just don't know. Your indulgence is craved. I am UK based to probably complicate things.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Phenyl Mercapto Tetrazol (PMT) and other unique antifoggants are available on the open chemical market but hard to find. PMT is sold through the Formulary, but by the time you need it, your color paper is probably worthless but that depends on the level of the fog.

If the paper is cyan, then the cyan layer is fogged or being fogged somehow. I cannot diagnose that from where I sit, merely give suggestions based on past experience. Sorry.

PE

bob100684 · Jan 18, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
I am merely reporting what Fuji presented at the conference. They did indicate that by changing times (shortening them severely IIRC), usable results could be obtained. I suggest that in spite of what they say in several different places, we consider that there may be some problem, or may have been some problem due to the number of complaints about it at the time, and the comment above about "wandering results".

So, in spite of what any manufacturer says, I have to factor into things what is going on in the real world.

PE

I wonder if they were referencing the new CP-49E chemistry, run at 45 celcius for a shorter time that frontier 340's and the 5xx series frontiers use? Interestingly, the cp-49e boxes were being used before CAII came out.

Kloppervok · Jan 29, 2010

For the record, I'd like to state that the green tint issue has been solved!
It's not an issue of which fuji emulsion it is, or a paper issue at all.

It's simply that my stop bath was way too hot. Like, 100F+ hot. I didn't notice it at first, but once I started doing everything at room temperature, the problem quickly showed itself and it's replicable. The same happens to kodak paper if you torture it too.

So now i'm enjoy my nicely balanced fuji prints.

Bob-D659 · Jan 29, 2010

Glad you found the problem.

pentaxuser · Jan 29, 2010

Nice to know that you found the problem but can I ask what a 100+ means. Is this just over 100 but less than 101 or does it mean well over a 100. If you were processing the print at 95F then I am surprised that using a stop bath at just over 5 degrees F more should create this problem.

Sorry to appear to be a dismal Jimmy but it is of concern that maybe as little as 5 degrees F difference between dev and stop can create this green cast.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Jan 29, 2010

Yes, that surprises me too! Could the stop have been too dilute? It should be about 2% or 20 ml of glacial acetic acid in 1 L of Stop. It should turn bright pink after a few prints have run through it. The pink should vanish if you add a pinch of Sodium Sulfite. In fact, some Sodium Sulfite (about 1 - 5 g/l) in the stop is a good idea in the first place if you see this type of stain.

This is a new one on me.

PE

nickandre · Jan 29, 2010

Why does my developer turn pink with kodak paper? Is that some dye that washes out?

Bob-D659 · Jan 29, 2010

Yes, and if you do a pre-wet rinse in a drum that turns colour too.

Photo Engineer · Jan 29, 2010

All color papers and films have trimmer and acutance dyes to adjust speeds and sharpness.

PE

bob100684 · Jan 30, 2010

tiberiustibz said:
Why does my developer turn pink with kodak paper? Is that some dye that washes out?

That really messed with me when I started working at a lab that ran kodak papers.....when we ran fuji, the developer turned greenish blue.

Kloppervok · Jan 30, 2010

pentaxuser said:
Sorry to appear to be a dismal Jimmy but it is of concern that maybe as little as 5 degrees F difference between dev and stop can create this green cast.
pentaxuser

Well, it's not really a 5 degree difference. My pre-wet water source and stop bath, and final rinse were all the same; this was just blatant operator error. I would just open my tap as far as i could, and just stick my drum under there.

I measured the temperature this morning, and my tap is 114F.
Needless to reiterate, i was just using water for stop.

Photo Engineer said:
It should be about 2% or 20 ml of glacial acetic acid in 1 L of Stop.
PE

what are the advantages of using the 2% acetic acid stop vs water? What volume should i be using in my drum and for how long should i let it agitate?

I'm reading the j39.pdf and kodak suggests a 30s stop and then a 30s rinse before blix. Is it really worth it to worry about small amounts of tainting in the blix?

About blix, how do I know it's exhausted? I haven't been able to tell, but i toss it every two dev cycles.

Photo Engineer · Jan 30, 2010

Do not ever use a water rinse after color development. Do not omit the stop bath after color development if you are using a drum and high temps. The process can be Dev, blix, wash at room temp only.

You don't need a rinse after the stop and before the blix. I never use one.

The blix can be replenished by removing 10% of volume and adding fresh. It will work just about forever that way, or until it becomes cloudy or begins to smell like Sulfur Dioxide or Hydrogen Sulfide.

PE

Kloppervok · Jan 30, 2010

The stop, after use, should i pour it back in the container or should i toss it out? What does the sodium sulfite contribute?

Bob-D659 · Jan 30, 2010

Stop bath stops the development, water slows it down over time. What drum are you using? I use 70ml of stop and 70-100ml of rinse water before 70ml of blix in a beseler 8x10 drum, constant agitation for all four steps, pre-rinse, dev, stop, rinse, blix.

Stop doesn't contaminate the blix, if I remember, blix contains acetic acid, the rinse reduces the dev carryover.

70 ml of dev does two 8x10, sometimes that is five trips thru the drum, four 4x5 test prints and a final 8x10. I use the blix for up to the equiv of four 8x10 prints. Kodak's data sheet alludes to blix capacity where it states the max number of print capacity per liter, but it isn't overly specific, (edit) 40 prints per liter for non critical applications.

This is all with Kodak chems and paper at room temp.

Photo Engineer · Jan 30, 2010

The stop can be used until it begins to lose the acetic acid odor. It turns pink. Adding Sodium Sulfite to the stop prevents the pink color from forming and extends the life just a little. It also adds another odor clue as to how good/bad the stop is.

PE

Kloppervok · Jan 30, 2010

I'm using a beseler 11x14 drum with 8x10 sheets, and I use 100ml dev.

Bob-D659 said:
70 ml of dev does two 8x10, sometimes that is five trips thru the drum, four 4x5 test prints and a final 8x10. I use the blix for up to the equiv of four 8x10 prints.

I'm surprised you do this! I've been told to toss out 25% of my dev after every usage, but this seems like you are literally using the same 70ml for 10 developing cycles. No adverse effects whatsoever?

Thanks for the information PE. I'll mix up some stop for my next batch.

Photo Engineer · Jan 30, 2010

I toss the developer after every drum cycle. The aeration by the rotation causes a lot of extra oxidation over and above what is used in development. This is a very low amount and a very chancy procedure.

PE

pentaxuser · Jan 30, 2010

Ah, I had no idea either that you were using a water rinse after developer. Every time I used a Jobo drum and at the end of each print cycle failed to dry our even a small amount of water in the drum and then poured in the next amount of developer I would get a green streak down the print where the residue of water had run onto the paper and then mixed with dev.

Your overall green cast would seem to be connected with my green streak problem. This green streak occurred irrespective of whether it was Kodak or Fuji paper.

Stop is very cheap. Change it very often. Not worth leaving it until it has ceased action.

I must admit that I always poured back my dev into the dev container in the water bath, gave it a shake to re-mix and then re-used it. Replenishing it as per the instructions which I think was 10ml per 8x10 print-not a Kodak kit I hasten to add. I'd usually do 10 prints then throw out 100ml and replenish.This made it very economical but maybe affected my print quality.

It sounds as if you should dump for top quality. At 50mls per 8x10 that's 20 prints per working litre which is a lot more expensive but maybe buying dev in bulk as you can with Kodak reduces the cost a lot. It certainly ensures that your working dev doesn't last long enough to give you storage life problems.

pentaxuser

Bob-D659 · Jan 30, 2010

Kloppervok said:
I'm using a beseler 11x14 drum with 8x10 sheets, and I use 100ml dev.

I'm surprised you do this! I've been told to toss out 25% of my dev after every usage, but this seems like you are literally using the same 70ml for 10 developing cycles. No adverse effects whatsoever?

Thanks for the information PE. I'll mix up some stop for my next batch.

Not the same developer for 10 cycles, the max I've done is 5 and usually only 3. The blix may be used for more, but I've never done more than 6 trips thru a drum with the blix. I carefully compare the test strips with the final print every time to make sure they look the same after everything is dry. I've even made a test strip with new chems to check back against an 8x10 from used dev and blix. Then I'll start printing another neg.

Yes it oxidizes, the max cycles are done in a short time period, the dev dies in a measuring cup in a couple of hours after being thru a drum once. I even put the used dev in an airless bottle, that won't help it survive either, I tested that too. I'm sure it's life at 33C is even shorter than at 20C.

Bob-D659 · Jan 30, 2010

Kloppervok, I didn't notice you are using an 11x14 drum. When I print using an 11x14 drum I use 150 ml of chemistry, and 280 ml for a 16x20 drum. I think your qty of chems is a little on the low side for an 11x14 drum from what I found for that drum size.

Green Tint in Fuji Crystal Archive Base

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