Green glass OR Brown glass for storage?

Samuel Hotton · May 28, 2007

Throughout my life I've heard that Brown glass bottles are best for storing B&W photochemicals?
QUESTION: How about using Green glass? Example is the Grolsch beer bottles with the ceramic and rubber clamp down stoppers? Green is used for beer and wine, Brown is used also for beer and for whiskey.
Is there something in developer that is sensitive to green light and not to brown light?
How about fixer? Do I really need a colored bottle to store it. I buy fixer concentrate in clear plastic cubitainers.
Come to think of it we buy HC-110 in clear plastic bottles.
Perhaps this requirement for brown bottles comes from an earlier era of photochemistry that was light sensitve in a particular wavelength, for example a Silver Iodide solution.
With thanks,
Sam Hotton
Have a fun and safe Memorial Day.

Sparky · May 28, 2007

Normally wavelengths toward the blue end of the spectrum contain more energy (why this is exactly - I'm not sure) - i.e. UV light and therefore tend to cause more rapid deterioration of complex molecules into their constituent parts (at which point, they cease functioning as intended). Green glass admits far more light toward the blue end of the spectrum. However - brown glass tends to simply admit far less light of all kinds, period. If you want to get really fancy - look for ruby glass (often found in mission critical glassware - such as volumetric flasks, etc...).

percepts · May 28, 2007

sometimes I wonder about the questions on this list.
If you are concerned about the light coming through the bottle then it would seem obvious that you would want to use opaque bottles.
And if you must use glass, then store chemicals away in a nice dark cupboard and then it really wouldn't matter what colour your bottles are.

BBarlow690 · May 28, 2007

Percepts is right, and I'll go a step further. I store print developer in clear glass and plastic Coke bottles. With no air, it lasts at least a year. I had Ansco 130 in 1-liter plastic Coke bottles for two years and it was still wonderful when I finally used it.

When I'm not in my darkroom, it's dark. When I'm in my darkroom, most of the time it's almost dark, and the chemicals are on open shelves underneath the sink. Why spend the money on glass, unless there's Grolsch in it to start with?

I've thought of Grolsch bottles for print developer ("single serving" size), but ended up with 16 oz glass Coke bottles instead. With that tight stopper, they'd be wonderful, methinks. Fun to accumulate, too.

Flotsam · May 28, 2007

If you need it, I will provide the service of emptying those Grolsch bottles for you. Just send them to me and I will empty them in a suitable manner and return the empties to you, ready for photographic use. No charge, just giving back to the photographic community.

Nick Zentena · May 28, 2007

Yup store the bottles in the dark.

But to answer the question. IIRC not all brown bottles are equal. There has been a long running argument if green bottles are really okay for beer. But then beer isn't supposed to be stored. If you did store it you'd store it in a dark cellar.

Roger Hicks · May 28, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
But then beer isn't supposed to be stored.

...just rented.

Cheers,

R. (I drank Plymouth Breweries Heavy in my youth, so I KNOW you only rent it)

jstraw · May 28, 2007

I too keep all my chemistry in a dark cabinet and this allows me to use clear PET plastic bottles. I use empty, 96oz. Newman's Own grape juice bottles. They have an incorporated handle grip in the shape of the bottle, they're durable as can be, they fit in my cupboard, they never leak, the white caps are easily written on and 96 oz id just perfect for filling my Cesco trays.

ITD · May 28, 2007

Just typical that my first post would be about beer!

Beer is stored in brown glass because of a chemical in hops which is sensitive to UV - beer stored in clear or green glass becomes 'light struck' and develops a pretty nasty tang.

There are a few exceptions, where breweries use hop extracts which are treated to avoid this. Wine has no hops so is not affected in the same way.

I always understood that developer solutions are susceptable to oxidation by UV, so I store them in brown glass. Green glass will not work in the same way.

My darkroom is not permanent, so I do have to be concerned about UV on my bottles.

Ole · May 28, 2007

Sparky said:
Normally wavelengths toward the blue end of the spectrum contain more energy (why this is exactly - I'm not sure) ...

It's because we see light with more energy as blue. More energy = shorter wavelength = bluer.

digiconvert · May 28, 2007

Ole said:
It's because we see light with more energy as blue. More energy = shorter wavelength = bluer.

Or alternativly you can use Plank's constant ; E = h mu
Where E is the energy carried , h is Plank's constant and mu (greek letter without a handy keyboard shortcut ) is the frequency of the light. It's the reason Gamma rays and X-Rays (high frequency) go through dense materials whereas the visible spectrum is stopped by concrete and flesh !

Frequency is how often something happens - high frequency radiation can 'hit' more often with energy packets - and my 'A' level physics is getting VERY hazy now !

Hope this helps :confused:

Anscojohn · May 28, 2007

I was told, in callow youth, that clear glass bottles had an excess of sulfite or alkali or something which could, repeat could, change the chemistry in the bottle.
When I lived in the beer capital of the world, Munich, in the early 1970s, I was told that no self respecting Bavarian would ever drink beer which came in a green bottle. I was told green bottles were strictly for beer going outside the country to people who knew nothing about what beer is supposed to taste like. As a result, I shall not drink any beer in green bottles, and, yes, those brown beer bottles with the hinged caps work great for small quanties of DK25R replenisher--ca 600 ml.
Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

Snapshot · May 28, 2007

Now, the real question is...

"Can green bottles be used to store beer?"

Ole · May 28, 2007

digiconvert said:
... and my 'A' level physics is getting VERY hazy now !

Hope this helps :confused:

I flunked physics, but not that badly!

Nick Zentena · May 28, 2007

Snapshot said:
Now, the real question is...

"Can green bottles be used to store beer?"

Keep the bottles in the dark

Of course real beer comes in wooden casks

ITD · May 28, 2007

Snapshot said:
"Can green bottles be used to store beer?"

No - although it's said that due to many breweries using green glass the general population has got used to drinking light-struck ('skunked' in the US) beer.

The only beer that can be stored in green glass without problems contains modified hop extracts rather than using hops directly.

Snapshot · May 28, 2007

ITD said:
No - although it's said that due to many breweries using green glass the general population has got used to drinking light-struck ('skunked' in the US) beer.

The only beer that can be stored in green glass without problems contains modified hop extracts rather than using hops directly.

Well, that's something interesting to know. I also noticed that beer has lightened in colouration in last decade or so. Is this related to this use of green glass or something entirely different?

BTW, is seems that I'm highjacking this thread so I'll apologize in advance.

Nick Zentena · May 28, 2007

Snapshot said:
Well, that's something interesting to know. I also noticed that beer has lightened in colouration in last decade or so. Is this related to this use of green glass or something entirely different?

It's been going on longer then that. It's marketing issues. People want bland dish water supposedly. So the brewers make dish water.

pnance · May 28, 2007

digiconvert, I too have heard that it is the chemical makeup of the clear glass that is the reason. Makes you wonder what different sand and stuff makes up the brown bottles.

ITD · May 28, 2007

Snapshot said:
I also noticed that beer has lightened in colouration in last decade or so. Is this related to this use of green glass or something entirely different?

As Nick Z says, mainly marketing - people want lighter coloured beer as it gives an intrinsically 'light' impression. There are more light coloured malts being used as a result - doesn't really affect any other characteristic AFAIK

Nick Zentena · May 28, 2007

They've also cut the final gravity of the beers. Made them drier. Not using dark malts and using a lower temp mash helps this and keeps the beer lighter.

Now we are very off topic -)

fschifano · May 28, 2007

ITD said:
No - although it's said that due to many breweries using green glass the general population has got used to drinking light-struck ('skunked' in the US) beer.

Or is it that the big US beer makers have been selling us p**s-water for so long that most of us Yanks don't know what real beer tastes like? Most of the so called beer sold here is in aluminum cans. It's not light struck, but it is still tastes lousy. Forget it. This can turn into a classic chicken and egg conundrum.

Green glass OR Brown glass for storage?

Samuel Hotton

Sparky

percepts

BBarlow690

Flotsam

Nick Zentena

Roger Hicks

jstraw

ITD

Ole

Moderator

digiconvert

Anscojohn

Snapshot

Ole

Moderator

Nick Zentena

ITD

Snapshot

Nick Zentena

pnance

ITD

Nick Zentena

fschifano

Green glass OR Brown glass for storage?

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