Graphic View limitations

iamthejeff · Mar 6, 2017

I have my first LF camera coming in the mail, a Graphic View, and included are a 90mm and 135mm lenses. I understand these are rather wide for LF and I've read that the Graphic View has limitations with wide angle lenses. I was wondering if somebody could describe what these limitations were. Thanks

Old-N-Feeble · Mar 6, 2017

The 90mm is fairly wide but the G-V can handle it with limited movements. The 135mm is 'almost' normal focal length (very slightly wide). If you buy a 200-210mm lens then you'll have a nice, evenly spaced, set of lenses all of which will work fine with your G-V. A recessed lens board will allow for a little more movements with the 90mm

iamthejeff · Mar 6, 2017

It looks like the 90mm does come already mounted on a recessed lens board, so that's good news

Old-N-Feeble · Mar 6, 2017

Those are both nice lenses but just realize they'll provide little or no movements on 4x5, especially the 90mm. So you'll be shooting straight on with those.

iamthejeff · Mar 6, 2017

Could you explain why that is? Is that true for all 90mm on 4x5 or just the Graphic View? Does it matter if I am focused at infinity or not?

Old-N-Feeble · Mar 6, 2017

There are others on this forum who can better answer your questions but basically, the usable image circles of those lenses are not much larger than the 153mm necessary to cover 4x5. They're good lenses. They just don't allow for much movements.

This has nothing to do with the make of the 4x5 camera. It has only to do with the make/model of the lenses. Those with more coverage will surely cost more. For instance, a Schneider 90mm Super Angulon XL will cost US$500-900 by itself but it allows for substantial movements on 4x5. In fact, that lens comfortably covers 5x7.

BrianShaw · Mar 6, 2017

Some cameras aren't designed to focus wide lenses at infinity without the use of recessed ken board and/or bag bellows due to their inherent design. The distance between the film plane and lens plane must be, at least, the focal length of the lens... on your situation 90 mm. The recessed board allows for focus when a flat board is either unable to be focused or too tight to allow any movements.

Old-N-Feeble · Mar 6, 2017

The G-V will focus a 90mm lens with a flat board but a recessed board allows for a little movement if the lens can supply such. No bag bellows are available for the G-V cameras (they don't have interchangeable bellows). Neither the 90mm W.A. Optar nor the 135mm Optar allow for any (or significant) movements due to their optical design. BUT... that might not matter to the OP at this time. Shooting straight on, those are perfectly fine lenses.

iamthejeff · Mar 6, 2017

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I will have to experiment and see what kind of results I get. The plus side is I can see the image on the ground glass before sacrificing film.

BrianShaw · Mar 6, 2017

When you get it and experiment a bit you'll figure things out quickly. Enjoy!

removed account4 · Mar 6, 2017

i used ( sold and miss ) a wide field optar. it had a purple dot ( i think? ) and was a field corps lens.
not sure if the design is different than yours, but it had a fair amount of movements, so much that i
easily cranked the front lens board and photographed a quarry with it without any running out of image.
have fun with your lenses and camera !

darkroommike · Mar 6, 2017

iamthejeff said:
It looks like the 90mm does come already mounted on a recessed lens board, so that's good news

That looks like the Calumet recessed w.a. board, not the Graphic View. It won't fit. Since the Optar does not have a lot of coverage anyway try it on a flat board until you find the right recessed w.a. board.

shutterfinger · Mar 6, 2017

These Wollensak catalogs from 1949 list the 90mm f6.8 Raptar to be for 3 1/4 x 4 1/4.
http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_2.html
http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_3.html
Graphic Optar is Wollensak Raptar rebadged, Graphex shutter is a Rapax rebadged.
The Optar/Raptar 90mm is similar to Schneider Angulon 90mm which is rated to produce a 154mm image circle at f16 and is listed for 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 format as is the Raptar. The diagonal of the 4x5 format is 162mm, actual negative image area is a little less.
1° of movement on a 90mm lens is a lot when viewing the image.

The Graphic View has base movements and a 12 inch bellows, The Graphic View II has axis movements and a 16 inch bellows.
http://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/graphic_view_camera.pdf
http://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/graphic_view_ii.pdf

Mr. Butkus puts his copyright on each manual but he does not own the copyright of the manual. He does this to discourage pirating of the manuals for resale.

Jim Jones · Mar 6, 2017

APUGuser19 said:
These are press lenses, not view lenses
Your movements are very restricted, as press lenses throw an image circle just slightly larger than the film perimeter. A little bit of rise or shift is all. No swings at all.

This is true for front swings and tilts. However, when only the rear is swung or tilted, the film remains within the image circle.

Arklatexian · Mar 6, 2017

iamthejeff said:
It looks like the 90mm does come already mounted on a recessed lens board, so that's good news

iamthejeff said:
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I will have to experiment and see what kind of results I get. The plus side is I can see the image on the ground glass before sacrificing film.

iamthejeff said:
Could you explain why that is? Is that true for all 90mm on 4x5 or just the Graphic View? Does it matter if I am focused at infinity or not?

I think your 90mm is a WA lens which it would have to be to cover a 4x5 film. You may have more movement with that lens than you think. I would recommend you try to find a 203mm, f7.7 Ektar lens and shutter to go with the lenses that you now have. Does your camera have a Graflok back? If so, it probably is a Graphic View II. Anyone who puts down your camera has probably never used one. That is probably the best camera for the money that can be bought today. Congratulations!......Regards!

Old-N-Feeble · Mar 6, 2017

The actual image area of 4x5 film is approximately 95x120mm which as a diagonal of 153mm. Both of your lenses will cover just fine straight on.

darkroommike · Mar 6, 2017

I have a 100mm wide field Ektar on my Graphic View, anything shorter is challenging. I've tried a 90/6.8 Angulon on a recessed board and it's a pain to operate. I prefer the 100mm on a flat board.

iamthejeff · Mar 7, 2017

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am really excited to try it out.

darkroommike said:
That looks like the Calumet recessed w.a. board, not the Graphic View. It won't fit. Since the Optar does not have a lot of coverage anyway try it on a flat board until you find the right recessed w.a. board.

These lenses came with the camera as a whole package including 4 film holders, a back, and the original carrying case. I can only assume the lenses were previously used with the camera and they would fit. I could of course be wrong but I am betting they were all used together.

oldtimermetoo said:
I think your 90mm is a WA lens which it would have to be to cover a 4x5 film. You may have more movement with that lens than you think. I would recommend you try to find a 203mm, f7.7 Ektar lens and shutter to go with the lenses that you now have. Does your camera have a Graflok back? If so, it probably is a Graphic View II. Anyone who puts down your camera has probably never used one. That is probably the best camera for the money that can be bought today. Congratulations!......Regards!

A ~200mm lens is definitely going to be my next purchase for sure, I will take a look at the Ektars.

I originally thought I had a Graphic View I, because the eBay listing didn't specify, but after comparing the I and II models, it looks like mine is definitely a II judging by the front axis movements. From the reading I did, it looks like the II came with a Graflok back standard. Just another assumption because the listing did not specify either. I got the whole thing for $280 CAD (about $210 USD) shipped, so I think I got a pretty fair deal. Certainly one of the least expensive introductions to LF I could hope for.

shutterfinger · Mar 7, 2017

The Graphic View I was made from 1941-1949; the Graphic View II from 8/1949 -1967. http://www.graflex.org/articles/graphic-view/
The Fresnel (Ektalite field screen) was introduced in the View II in 8/1950 and the Graflok back was first available on the View II in 3/1954.
A View II could have a Graflex Back, same as Graflex SLR's, a Graphic (spring) back with either in 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 or 4x5 format, or a Graflok back in 4x5 format only.
http://www.graflex.org/graflex-products-list.html
http://www.southbristolviews.com/pics/Graphic/manual-pdf/GraphicView2Service.pdf

There will be a 6 digit serial number stamped into the rear standard, possibly the lower left.

Doremus Scudder · Mar 7, 2017

My first LF camera was a Graphic View II. I still have it and use it occasionally. The weak spot on these cameras is the combination rail clamp/tripod mount. If yours is in good condition, then you are good to go. Side-to-side tilt is, however, not possible; leveling has to be done with the tripod. I had a custom clamp made with a regular tripod mounting screw socket and now use a conventional pan/tilt tripod head.

You will learn quickly about lenses with different amounts of coverage. For example, it is possible to have a 90mm lens that projects a 260mm image circle and allows a lot of movements on 4x5 and another 90mm lens that projects only a 170mm image circle (or less) and allows almost no movements. The former will be bigger and more expensive than the latter. As mentioned above, you can still use back swings and tilts with lenses with smaller image circles, since these keep the film within the projected image circle, but front movements and rise/fall and shift are out. If you find you want to use more movements, a 90mm Schneider Super Angulon or Rodenstock Grandagon or Nikkor/Fuji SW series lens can be picked up for not too much these days used and will offer you a lot more.

One caveat about using the 90mm on your Graphic View (especially if you have the II). It's easy to get the rail in the image area. When I use my 90mm Super Angulon (on a recessed board, BTW) on the Graphic View, I make sure I have both standards in front of the tripod mount and the rail well back. The 135mm will present no problems in this regard.

The Graphic View II may not have all the bells and whistles that a Sinar may have, but it has all the movements you'll likely ever need and is a more-than-capable camera. I still use mine for table-top work or other times when I need a monorail instead of my usual wooden folder.

Might I suggest you take a look at the Large Format home page here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and peruse the articles there. There's a wealth of info there for the beginner and advanced LF photographer.

Best,

Doremus

iamthejeff · Mar 27, 2017

Well it looks like everything works and there are no light leaks, I took some test shots using the 90mm and developed them this weekend:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/iamthejeff/33299403140/in/photostream/lightbox/

tessar · Mar 27, 2017

Great shot, looks like the Graphic View is working well for you. The similar Calumet CC-400 was my first LF camera, also a good beginners' model. As a Calgarian, I recognize that Big Rock near Okotoks -- we used to practise rappeling there. I'm now learning to use an 8x10, have to take extra care because the film is so expensive!

Graphic View limitations

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