grainy ... films under the microscope

[photophil]

some time ago I had put some different black and white films under the microscope. I had just been interested in how grain looks and what "fine" and "coarse" grain really means. I thought it would also be intersting for other so I will put these here.

Four images of each film with different magnifications. As the scalebars are not easily readable, here the values (from top left to bottom right): 500µm, 100µm, 50µm, 20µm

The film/developer combos I had looked at first were:

Ilford FP4+ (@ 125ISO) in Rodinal 1:25
Kodak TriX (@ 400ISO) in Rodinal 1:50
Fuji Acros (@ 80ISO) in Spur SD2525
Ilford Delta400 (@ 800ISO) in Rodinal 1:25

I will add more combos within the next days if you are interested in. All films had been 120s medium format developed by hand in a Jobo drum (tilting style) using the datasheet recepies or the mass dev chart.

PHILIP

 

[mr.datsun]

Looks interesting. It'd be great to compare different films in the same developer and at the same dilutions.

Also, is it common sense to assume that inverting these images shows what the grain in a print would look like?

 

[stavrosk]

Wow very interesting! Thank you!

 

[Gerald C Koch]

People refer to grain or graininess in a print. But it is important to always remember that what is seen in prints is not really grain. What is seen are the spaces between the grains in the negative.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Photophil,

Thank you for this post. I would be interested in others being able to see some images of negatives produced by staining developers.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Umm, while interesting, it would be nice to know the speed comparisons and contrast values for the films. Otherwise we don't know what the actual data represents. These are just points of data hanging out to look at.

To be a fair comparison, all films should be developed to the same contrast and to the rated speed in a common developer.

PE

 

[Peter de Groot]

I would be interested to see what the differences are for example tri-x in rodinal 1+25 and 1+50 and 1+100 stand dev. Or something like that. And taht repaeted for different developer combo's and films. However it is cool to see it up here. Thanks.

 

[photophil]

I would be interested to see what the differences are for example tri-x in rodinal 1+25 and 1+50 and 1+100 stand dev.

That is also one thing I want to try. I have recipies for 1+25 and 1+50 with tilting. Does someone has a nice set of time and temperature for a 1+100 and/or 1+150 stand development?

If I have enough time (and films) I will maybe also try to look at different levels of push development (400/640/800ISO)...

PHILIP

 

[photophil]

Umm, while interesting, it would be nice to know the speed comparisons and contrast values for the films. Otherwise we don't know what the actual data represents. These are just points of data hanging out to look at.

To be a fair comparison, all films should be developed to the same contrast and to the rated speed in a common developer.
PE

If not especially given I take the box speed (eg 400ISO for TriX) and use the development data from the manufacturer which (normally) should give something around delta 0.6

I know that my test here are just some small glimpses of all the combinations possible. But thought they would be interesting also in this state. Just to get an impression what we are taking about when it comes to "grain". I will not provide excessive grain-size-analysis exactly because of the problems you had adressed.

PHILIP

 

[Diapositivo]

If you want to see film under the microscope, and read - generally speaking - an interesting document about film, I would suggest:

Film Grain, Resolution and Fundamental Film Particles, by Tim Vitale, 2007

The link below opens a large (4.31 MB) PDF document
http://cool.conservation-us.org/coo...itale/2007-04-vitale-filmgrain_resolution.pdf

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Umm, while interesting, it would be nice to know the speed comparisons and contrast values for the films. Otherwise we don't know what the actual data represents. These are just points of data hanging out to look at.

To be a fair comparison, all films should be developed to the same contrast and to the rated speed in a common developer.

PE

In addition, use the same test target for each film and then put the same areas of the target under the microscope.

 

[paul ron]

I'd be more interested to see differences between T grain films vs the standard grain of sister ASA speed Pan films keeping developers n temps the same both shooting the same target.

 

[nworth]

Interesting and valuable. The examples look pretty closely matched, but it's hard to tell, and PE makes a good point. I'll be looking forward to more.

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

If you want to see film under the microscope, and read - generally speaking - an interesting document about film, I would suggest:

Film Grain, Resolution and Fundamental Film Particles, by Tim Vitale, 2007

The link below opens a large (4.31 MB) PDF document
http://cool.conservation-us.org/coo...itale/2007-04-vitale-filmgrain_resolution.pdf

Thanks, an interesting read indeed.

 

[Alan Johnson]

photophil,
Can you say how you keep the film flat to take these photomicrographs?
Thanks

 

[photophil]

actually, I do nothing

I dont want to have scatches by any clamps or whatever. If you look closely you will see on some images that the corners are somehow out of focus because the film is not fully flat. I just try to stay in the center of the film-strip so I only have light bending and not an angled surface like I would get on the curled edges.

PHILIP

 

[photophil]

Here are two more combos:

Ilford PanF plus (@ ISO50) in Rodinal 1:50
Ilford Delta3200 (@ ISO3200) in Rodinal 1:50 at two spots with low and medium density on the negative

The second one is - according to some people around - not an optimum combination. But I tried it once and now I can show it here.

A Rollei 80S (planned for SD2525) and a Fomapan400 (planned for Rodinal) are in my camera right now. So these will be the next ones shown here.

so ... fire away

PHILIP

PS: Just some remarks on my development process: All development is done in a Jobo drum by hand with tilting. Developer (in aqua dest.) tempered with an analog thermometer. Chemistry measured with small measurement cylinders. The time is taken from a stopwatch.

 

[photophil]

I have copied the highest magnifications into one file and sorted them according the grain size (as it appears to me). This - for me - gives the following list:

Ilford PanF+
Fuji Acros100
Ilford FP4+
Kodak TriX400
Ilford Delta400 @800
Ilford Delta3200

As said - all my personal opinion. Due to other film development the order may change.

PHILIP

 

[Documentary Research]

some time ago I had put some different black and white films under the microscope. I had just been interested in how grain looks and what "fine" and "coarse" grain really means. I thought it would also be intersting for other so I will put these here.

Four images of each film with different magnifications. As the scalebars are not easily readable, here the values (from top left to bottom right): 500µm, 100µm, 50µm, 20µm

The film/developer combos I had looked at first were:

Ilford FP4+ (@ 125ISO) in Rodinal 1:25
Kodak TriX (@ 400ISO) in Rodinal 1:50
Fuji Acros (@ 80ISO) in Spur SD2525
Ilford Delta400 (@ 800ISO) in Rodinal 1:25

I will add more combos within the next days if you are interested in. All films had been 120s medium format developed by hand in a Jobo drum (tilting style) using the datasheet recepies or the mass dev chart.

PHILIP

 

[Documentary Research]

I realize this was posted a long time ago but we may be interested in using your image Kodak-TriX400-Rodinal50.jpg in a documentary film. If this comment gets to you, please email me at tfoxman1@gmail.com and I will give you the details about our project. Many thanks.

 

[revdoc]

The OP was last logged in here in Feb 2012, so I think he might not get your message.

He seems to have a web site that's still active. Maybe try there.

Philip Hens - photo-phil

Philip Hens - photo-phil

www.photo-phil.org

 

[Dr. no]

It lives! Didn't look at the date till I saw PE's reply...

 

[Documentary Research]

The OP was last logged in here in Feb 2012, so I think he might not get your message.

He seems to have a web site that's still active. Maybe try there.

Philip Hens - photo-phil

Philip Hens - photo-phil

www.photo-phil.org

Thank you very much. I will try him there.

 

[koraks]

Welcome to Photrio @Documentary Research !
I think many of us would love to hear more about the production you're working on. Is there a place where we can receive updates on it? Thanks!

 

[paul ron]

I realize this was posted a long time ago but we may be interested in using your image Kodak-TriX400-Rodinal50.jpg in a documentary film. If this comment gets to you, please email me at tfoxman1@gmail.com and I will give you the details about our project. Many thanks.

yes please post some information here? maybe others can participate in your project?