Grain Focus

My search turned up how to use them, which is great.
But, in regards to size, what are you supposed to see.?
When you look down at the mirror, do you see a very small portion of it. Like a small "dot" that is maybe only 10% the size of the mirror.?
Thank You

Think of looking at a handful of sand with a magnifying glass.

Obviously it depends on what negative density you're viewing.

- Leigh

Grain is more easily seen in those portions of the negative receiving less exposure. So move the device around to find that best spot where grain is easy to see.

Modern film is so fabulous that I have given up on grain, I just try to find a sharp line or detail and use a Magna Sight or a little Paterson grain focuser. I have one of every grain focuser ever made. Tri-X from 1970 even in 4x5 easy. The new T-grain, I think you need 40x.

Right...but i am not talking about the grain. I am talking about the size of what you see. Is it the size of a Dime...Nickel...Quarter.?
Thanks

CMoore said:

I am talking about the size of what you see. Is it the size of a Dime...Nickel...Quarter.?

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I already answered that question.

- Leigh

If you mean how much of the film is being viewed at the eyepiece, that would depend on the film format and degree of magnification. It's a very small area even if large film is enlarged very little.

See the size of the mirror.?
When you look down at it to focus, do you see the entire mirror, or just a small portion of it.?
You could be looking at a negative or an orange dangling from the ceiling.

I don't know what portion of the mirror is seen by the eyepiece but I would assume the viewed diameter is nearly equal to the width of the mirror. This assumes the manufacturer designed the thing efficiently. This would be at the top of the mirror when the eyepiece is tilted at its most oblique angle because it's farther away from the mirror. It would utilize a smaller area of the mirror when the eyepiece is turned most acutely, at its highest position, because it's closer to the mirror.

I must ask, why is this important?

This is a total nonsense question.

You see exactly what is on the print, magnified by 10x or whatever the spec is for the focuser.

That's the way grain focusers work.

- Leigh

CMoore said:

When you look down at it to focus, do you see the entire mirror, or just a small portion of it.?

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Well, you don't really see the mirror; you're not even aware of one. You might as well ask how much of the mirror you see when you look through the eyepiece of an SLR camera. The angular field of view you see through a grain focuser is not unlike what you would see if you put one eye up to one side of a pair of binoculars. Except, instead of a distant object, you are seeing a greatly magnified portion of the negative.

Old-N-Feeble said:

I don't know what portion of the mirror is seen by the eyepiece but I would assume the viewed diameter is nearly equal to the width of the mirror. This assumes the manufacturer designed the thing efficiently. This would be at the top of the mirror when the eyepiece is tilted at its most oblique angle because it's farther away from the mirror. It would utilize a smaller area of the mirror when the eyepiece is turned most acutely, at its highest position, because it's closer to the mirror.

I must ask, why is this important?

Click to expand...

Why.? Because i have never looked through one before.
Now i am.....and i see, like i said, a small dot...about 10% the size of the mirror.?
So i did a search, and like i said, there were posts about "How To Use"...but nothing that described what it should look like.

Regards the SLR Mirror.....
I am not talking about "Seeing" the mirror.....i am simply wondering how much of the mirror you guys see when you look at your focuser.
No...you do not "See the mirror" when you look in an SLR, because you see all of what the mirror reflects, so you have no awareness of a mirror being there.
But if you looked into an SLR and saw a dot that was maybe 10% the size of the reflex mirror, then you would "See The Mirror" and maybe wonder if that is what it is supposed to look like.?

- Leigh B -
Really.?
A "Total Nonsense Question".?

I'll try to answer this. First, without using the focuser, just focus by eye. Get it close. Then, using the focuser (put your eye right against the eyepiece unless it is a Magnasee, in which case, look at it from a distance), slowly move the focus back and forth, slowly. If you have a good focuser, you should find a point where you can see the grains, or at least, obvious tiny edges. Quality of focuser does matter. I have several, and have found the Peak to be the best of the bunch at seeing grain clearly, even though one of the other focusers has higher magnification.

chuck94022 said:

I'll try to answer this. First, without using the focuser, just focus by eye. Get it close. Then, using the focuser (put your eye right against the eyepiece unless it is a Magnasee, in which case, look at it from a distance), slowly move the focus back and forth, slowly. If you have a good focuser, you should find a point where you can see the grains, or at least, obvious tiny edges. Quality of focuser does matter. I have several, and have found the Peak to be the best of the bunch at seeing grain clearly, even though one of the other focusers has higher magnification.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how I focus my grain magnifier - it is much easier to get into the ballpark and tweak than to be starting from scratch. The suggestion to use darker areas is excellent, and the grain is much more apparent than in lighter areas.

About what you see, it's a small portion of the negative reflected by the mirror itself. I can't give you a size exactly; the magnifier simply magnifies a selected part of the negative well enough for you to see the actual grain present - the actual magnification factor is not necessary IMHO.

If for example, I can see the grain in BrandAMagnifier clearly (and it magnifies the neg 15x) and I can also see the grain in BrandBMagnifier, (but it only magnifies 10x) the print will be in focus - that's all that I care about. Brand A vs. Brand B - for me, there is no real competition regarding a magnification factor, as long as the brand I choose is easy to use and allows me to get an in-focus print. Every. Single. Time.

I had an LPL model that served me well, but once I moved to the Peak version, I wouldn't honestly want to have to revert. The Peak is brighter and the focusing area "appears" to be larger. Is it? No idea - I don't particularly care as it simply does its job quickly, efficiently and correctly.

CMoore,

You are not giving us nearly enough information to answer your question. What kind of grain focuser do you have? Does it have an eyepiece or not?

If you are looking into an eyepiece and don't see a full image, but just a small circle (think holding binoculars too far from your eye), then something is amiss with your focuser.

If you're asking about how much negative area you should see, or if you're wondering what the angle of view is or whatever, we can't really tell from your question.

How about some more information and precision.

Doremus

I didn't realise the operation of a grain focuser could engender such befuddlement.
Although it did take me several initial viewings over a few hours to realise; that the white 'bits' viewed on the print represented the black 'bits' on the negative, and vice-versa.
My own self-tutalage journey has been riddled with many such head-scratching moments, so I'll afford the OP the benefit of the doubt.

Mayby the OP should just move the focuser a bit more to the middle of the projected negative?
Regards,
Frank

To the OP. Did you buy a used grain focuser? What kind? This will help us help you. With some grain focusers it's very important to stay near the center area of the projected image in order to see the full reflected area from the mirror. Also, on some, like the Paterson, you must have your eye at an exact distance from the eyepiece or you will not see the full reflected image either. All in all, we need more info from you first.

I think the OP has made a valid request. For someone who has never used a fine grain focuser , even with the instructions it can be difficult to fully understand.

The dot on the mirror the OP asked about is to set the focus of the focuser, a bit like diopter control on a camera viewfinder. Once you can see a sharp dot (or line depending on the make of focuser) you know the focus of the focuser is set correctly.

With the focuser on your baseboard in the middle, turn on the enlarger with the negative inserted, and look into the focuser. You then adjust the enlarger focus until you see the grain is as sharp as the DOT on the mirror. Sometimes you might need to move the focuser around the baseboard to get a good part of the neg to focus on. I always found that a sharp line or edge of an object in the neg easier to focus on and also found it easier to keep the focuser near the centre rather than the edge of the baseboard.

Dear CMoore,

You see a very small dot. Much smaller than 10% of the negative when used for an 8x10.

Personally, I like the Bestwell Micro Sight.

Neal Wydra

CMoore said:

When you look down at the mirror, do you see a very small portion of it

Click to expand...

When you look into the eyepiece of the focuser, you should not really see the mirror... The way you phrase this, it sounds as if the eyepiece might be missing. Could you please post a picture of your focuser?

CMoore said:

I am talking about the size of what you see. Is it the size of a Dime...Nickel...Quarter.?

Click to expand...

Hi, in these terms, I am seeing a circular area roughly the size of a dime - about 7/10 inch diameter. My mirror measures about 1 inch by 3 1/4 inches. Note that the mirror has square corners, but I don't see them, I only see a circular image.

As a note, the focal length of the eyepiece is about 1 inch (~ 25mm), so if you have such a lens, and use it as a magnifier, and your field of view just covers a dime, this is roughly equivalent to what I see.

I have one of the Micromega units with the "Prof. Z. Koana system" label. It has a pivoting eyepiece, and combined with the long mirror this lets you use it for either the central part of the image or for the outer edges (different parts of the mirror are used).

I have been using a BestWell "Mini-Sight" which I believe is 10x magnification. I have had pretty good results with medium format negatives, but smaller stuff gets a bit challenging (even after getting cataracts fixed this past winter! ) The unit is very sensitive to where it is relative to the enlarger lens axis, and eye relief and position is a challenge as well. The finer "tabular" grain films are definitely difficult, I shoot a lot of 120 Acros and find 400TX much easier as a focus target. In general, the portion of the negative I see is pretty small and I have to move my eye position around to optimize the view.

Recently I attempted some enlargements from a Delta 100 Minox negative (8x11 mm frame!) using an "ENLA" adapter on my enlarger. This is an assembly of a negative carrier, condenser lens, and enlarger lens with focusing mount, that replaces a normal lens on a regular enlarger, using the primary enlarger for light source and mechanical support. Wow -- what an exercise. The enlarging lens on that unit is around 20mm and I was going for a 5x7 inch print, which approaches a 16x enlargement. With the Mini-Sight I could barely discern what was going on. (Maybe I need to spend my next Social Security check on a Peak! )

According to my fading memory and records of the pile of stuff I've acquired since I ramped up darkroom activity, I own one of those MagnaSight thingies which projects the image onto a ground glass. I thought to try using it when doing that Minox enlargement to see if it helped, but alas, couldn't find it. It's pretty big to lose, which proves a) I have too much accumulated junk, and b) I apparently didn't find it useful for 7 or 8 years. Oh my!

In general, those grain magnifiers project an "aerial" image, and a reticle of some sort provides a target to focus the eyepiece for the user's eye. Once the reticle and the image/grain are in simultaneous focus, you're there. The technique described upthread of going past the focus one way, then back to similar OOF the other way, then reversing to half way between, is good advice.

The eye's focal point is certainly critical for proper use of the grain focuser.
It must correspond to the print's emulsion.

Good grain focusers incorporate a crosshair at that proper focal point.
If you see the crosshair in sharp focus, the sharply-focused grain should be at the emulsion.

- Leigh

I move my head towards and away from the lens until the complete circle of light fills to lens. It takes some getting used to.