Grain Comparison 4x5 and 35

[Grif]

say, 16x20 print. I know what Panatomic X and microdol 1:3 grain looks like. So, if that's an acceptable print, what 4x5 film/asa will do about the same?

Another way to ask the question,,, how fast can I push the 4x5 asa and still have an acceptable (to me) grain level?

(as long as I've gone off the deep end,,, the question is really about available light photography with a hand held linholf )

 

[BetterSense]

If 35mm is acceptable, then with 4x5 grain won't be a problem no matter how far you push. Tonality is going to start radically departing from the norm, though, as you continue to decrease exposure.

 

[Grif]

If 35mm is acceptable, then with 4x5 grain won't be a problem no matter how far you push. Tonality is going to start radically departing from the norm, though, as you continue to decrease exposure.

So, how fast and which emulsion would you recommend? I'd be ok with a couple of stops, three would be nice. I used to be able to hand hold my nikon and 135 at a 60th most of the time,,, but that was 40 years or so ago ;-)

 

[BetterSense]

Fastest thing in 4x5 is TMAX 400.

 

[Sirius Glass]

say, 16x20 print. I know what Panatomic X and microdol 1:3 grain looks like. So, if that's an acceptable print, what 4x5 film/asa will do about the same?

Another way to ask the question,,, how fast can I push the 4x5 asa and still have an acceptable (to me) grain level?

(as long as I've gone off the deep end,,, the question is really about available light photography with a hand held linholf )

Assuming the same film and chemicals, the height of the 35mm is 1" so that the 35mm negative is enlarged 16 times for a 16"x20". Therefore at 4"x5" would become 64"x80". However as pointed out by BetterSense TMAX 400 has finer grain than Panatomic X. The limit is really the optics of the enlarger and available paper size, because the larger the print, the further back the viewer must be. Hence, grain is not all that important using a T-grain film like TMAX.

Steve

 

[keithwms]

I have an old blog post on this topic that may interest you, here's the link:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[removed account4]

hi grif

i don't think you will have problems enlarging a 4x5 negative to 16x20
if you have no had problems enlarging 35mm to that size.
even if it happened to be tri x and not tmx or tmy, it is only a 4x enlargement ...

i don't really know anyone who looks at prints with their nose to the print, no matter what the film
you will see the grain at 16x20 .. at a distance where you actually see the print, you won't notice the grain ...

have fun !
john

 

[michaelbsc]

I think if you're trying to do handheld your camera shake will be far more of an issue than grain.

I realize you were asking because you know you'll be shooting fast to minimize shake.

Not sure about your platform, but I find a Crown Graphics easy enough at 1/30. Just how low level is your "available light" going to be? Pushing TMY-2 to 3200 will probably work for you.

MB

 

[Thingy]

Fastest thing in 4x5 is TMAX 400.

Sadly true, unless you can get your hands on 5x4 Rollei R3*... :

Still got 5 packs in my freezer.

You can still get it here:
http://www.mrcad.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=504253&cat=1524&page=1

For lower volumes:
http://www.mrcad.co.uk/shop/home.php?cat=1524 ...and scroll down to the bottom of the page


*Up to ISO 6400, albeit with graininess......

 

[paul_c5x4]

You can still get it here:
http://www.mrcad.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=504253&cat=1524&page=1

Eeeks... £67 for ten sheets - I really do hope that is a misprint, otherwise it is darned expensive film

 

[werra]

Eeeks... £67 for ten sheets - I really do hope that is a misprint, otherwise it is darned expensive film

100 it is, not 10?

 

[Thingy]

Eeeks... £67 for ten sheets - I really do hope that is a misprint, otherwise it is darned expensive film

It's £8 for 10 sheets & £67 for 100 sheets!

 

[paul_c5x4]

I know the header says "Rollei R3 Varie Speed B + W 5x4 Sheet Film X 100 Sheets", but the description reads:

Variable Speed 50 to 6400 ASA
10 Sheets per Box
Dated August 2010

 

[Grif]

Not sure about your platform, but I find a Crown Graphics easy enough at 1/30. Just how low level is your "available light" going to be? Pushing TMY-2 to 3200 will probably work for you.
MB

if you have no had problems enlarging 35mm to that size.
i don't really know anyone who looks at prints with their nose to the print,
you won't notice the grain ...
have fun !
john

I have an old blog post
keithwms

because the larger the print, the further back the viewer must be. Hence, grain is not all that
important using a T-grain film like TMAX.
Steve
[/I]

Really appreciate all the comments. Things moving slow right now, actually getting to build a heated room in the corner of my shop for clean hobbies like photography that I have. It'll be nice to actually have a place to do film without all the hysterics involved in taking over the shower and bathroom from the SO.

Linholf Technika 4x5, rangefinder seems to be dead on, or as good as I am with a loupe, I'll be using a side mount grip with trigger,,, like I had on a mamiya c33 years ago. If I could get asa 3200 and any kind of reasonable contrast control I'd be way tickled. Mostly street at night, and inside shooting. I really think I can hold it at a 60th ok. For the most part, I think that puts me one stop down from wide open or even a bit better with the area's and things I've been looking at.

Contrast curves won't be quite the problem it was, or could be,,, I've embraced my dark side in a couple of areas, including printing. ;-)

16x20 from 35. Did I say no problem ;-)??? Right. I hate dust, and hated grain. And, I was working in an unfinished utility basement. But did manage to make a couple of prints that worked. Still, I've seen some pic's that the grain didn't seem to invade (for me). Oh,,, and the grain issue is almost all about me with my nose on the paper. I've just never embraced the fact 99% of the folks never notice when looking at a print I've done. I really, really like the super smooth greys of LF images.

So,,, TMAX 400. What's the favorite witches brew to push to 3200 with no grain, and super smooth shadow detail and a really nice set of mid tones? (ROTFLxxx).

 

[Neal]

Dear Grif,

Buy Xtol and download the data sheet. For me, both TMY and HP5+ at box speed work quite nicely hand held with a 135mm on a Crown Graphic. I usually shoot between 1/50 and 1/100 without problem. The Xtol data sheet will easily give you great starting times for pushing, particularly if you use rotary processing.

Neal Wydra

 

[Grif]

Well,,, I'll give it a try with hp5 before I grab TMY. I've not done any darkroom since Microdol X and Panatomic X were state of the art, so the decision to upgrade emulsions and developers is not only some thing that sounds like a good idea every so often,,, much of what I was used to just ain't made any more ;-)

I keep going back and forth on HC110. Never did use it back when, just D-76 and Microdol.

How come you're an Xtol and not a TMax fan? I've really only brushed over the differences at this point.

 

[pgomena]

Buy yourself a monopod. It won't look any weirder in the street than hand-holding a Linhof.

Peter Gomena

 

[Grif]

Hey,,, I've been to Voodoo donuts and seen the sign across the street ;-) I hadn't been there in years and years,,, the Saturday market was worth the trip all by itself. What an opportuntity for street photography.

That is a good point however. I think I'll slap the roll back on it and go try out some slow shutter speeds. I'll bet I can get a 30 or even a 15th often enough to be usable. Any of the camera folks use a bipod? Don't think I've ever seen one on a camera. the shooting folks have been using them quite a number of years. (before the civil war and black powder).

 

[jp498]

A 16x20 4x5 image will have the same grain as a 4x6 35mm image. But you have to put your face closer to a 4x6 print, so grain will be even less apparent at the greater viewing distance of a 16x20. A monopod indeed would be a good idea. TMY2 can be pushed to 800 or 1600 easily if you don't mind a noticeable contrast increase. I've done it with tmax developer. I mostly use xtol now, and haven't tried it with that.

 

[brucemuir]

I used to do some street with a Speed Graphic when I was learning 4x5 but tried to stay above 1/125 with the 135 Optar I had.

The bulk actually helps handholding.

Slow speeds can really give you some cool stuff and you can always rest the box on/against something.

Have fun most of all and push your limits.