Graflex Speed Graphic Rear Shutter Flash trigger problem

engelfoto · Aug 31, 2007

Hi all

I have a Speed Graphic with an Aero Ektar 178mm f2.5. Using the rear shutter as my lens has no front shutter.

Flash syncs perfectly with cheapo flash units (I have a shoe added to the top of the camera) at 125, 250, 500, etc.

Flash syncs perfectly with my Nikon SB-800 when it's not attached to the shoe.

But the minute I attach the SB-800 to the shoe, it no longer works.

What's up? Are the little pointy things (yeah I'm really technical) at the bottom of the SB-800 being pushed up and basically telling the unit to not trigger?

How can I overcome this besides using my cheapo flashes? They're not powerful enough.

I'm also worried that now my idea of using pocket wizards with this camera won't work unless the pocket wizard isn't actually attached to the shoe. This is very annoying. I'll have to gaffer-tape the stuff. Ugh. The whole idea of a shoe is that it allows you to stabilize your equipment.

Any ideas?

juan · Aug 31, 2007

Yeah, the pointy things are telling the flash to get the flash signal through the shoe, so it won't work.

I'm curious about you saying that the flash syncs at all. It was my understanding that flash with the rear shutter required a special long burning bulb, and as a result, I've never tried electronic flash. Have you actually exposed a negative, or are you just looking through the back to see the flash?
juan

darinwc · Aug 31, 2007

can you drill a shallow hole in the shoe so the pointy things will not be engaged?

darinwc · Aug 31, 2007

juan has a good point..
my understanding of the fraflex focal plane shutter is that the faster speeds are attained with a small slit. The electronic flashes tend to be very fast, so only a portion of the film gets exposed.

have you exposed any film? what is the fastest shutter speed you can use?

engelfoto · Aug 31, 2007

Well I guess that just goes to show you that you should always actually TEST A SHOT FIRST. Sure enough, only a portion of the shot is actually getting flashed. I'm testing with some old Polaroid Type 552 packfilm. 400 ISO film, dark room with light coming in through blinds. SB-800 full power manual. The print is dark with only highlights about 2/3 of the shot, the other third is a better exposure with the flash blowing it out a bit.

Any electronic flashes that allow you to set the time of the flash?

This really annoys me even more now because I told someone who is very experienced with these cameras if they could put the shoe on to do just this task, and they were all for it. Now it seems pointless.

Or is it?

My dream is to be able to have a multi flash set up using pocket wizards and strobes all working from my Speed Graphic.

There's gotta be a way to do this, no?

Dan Fromm · Aug 31, 2007

Jeff, if you want to use flash with a Speed Graphic's focal plane shutter you'll have to use chemical flash. Long burn flash bulbs. Electronic flash can't be made to work usefully with the FPSunless there's no ambient light. In that case, you can use what's effectively open flash. Set the shutter on T, press the release, and then press it again to close the shutter.

Its time for leaf shutters and electronic flash. The 178 Aero Ektar is for ambient light. Of course, you could use what WWII aerial photographers used. Drop a flash bomb, set the camera running, and one of the exposures will be ok. Just the thing for indoors, but not practical with a Graphic.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 31, 2007

As Dan says, on these shutters, the shutter is always a slit traveling across the film gate, so there is no way to do X-sync with the focal plane shutter unless you use the T or B setting.

The solution is to use a lens with a leaf shutter when you want to use strobes.

If you want to be able to use the rangefinder at the same time and don't want to change the calibration for the Aero-Ektar (unless you have one of the versions that uses cams, in which case you can just change the cam), the solution is to get another Graphic (might as well be a Crown, since you won't be using the FP shutter) and calibrate it for the lens you'll be using with strobes.

Moopheus · Aug 31, 2007

engelfoto said:
Hi all
Flash syncs perfectly with my Nikon SB-800 when it's not attached to the shoe.

But the minute I attach the SB-800 to the shoe, it no longer works.

I've run into the same problem with my SB-24 and non-Nikon cameras with cold shoes. I also have now a Speed Graphic I was hoping to use it with, and I picked up at Calumet the other day a plastic shoe with a 1/4" thread screw. The strobe seems to fire properly with that (being plastic, it doesn't send any signal to the flash) and a synch chord, and it can be screwed into the tripod socket on the side of the Graflex.

darinwc · Aug 31, 2007

what if you fire it in bulb setting but just tap the shutter release so it opens/closes immediately?

engelfoto · Aug 31, 2007

darinwc said:
what if you fire it in bulb setting but just tap the shutter release so it opens/closes immediately?

No bulb setting on the focal plane shutter. Just T so I have to hit shutter release twice.

I'll have to experiment and see what I can do.

But everyone is right... there's really no way to use the focal plane shutter with a shutter speed and electronic flash. Gotta get chemical flash. Hmm... now that's got me thinking... what if I could hook up a bunch of slow burning bulbs to several pocket wizards... oh yeah....

juan · Sep 1, 2007

If you really want to rig up something, you might take a look at the shutter, figure out the fastest time that will give you a full frame, then create a digital delay that will plug in between the camera and the flash. Make your test circuit with a pot so you can adjust the time of the delay to get the correct sync.

After you've figured this out, please post the schematic and all parts values so we can make our own. Ha.
juan

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 1, 2007

On a modern SLR with a two curtain shutter, the first curtain starts to travel, and then the second one starts to close, and the X-sync speed is the fastest speed at which the second curtain doesn't start until the first one reaches the end of the film gate.

On a Graphic, there are four fixed slits for different speed ranges, all smaller than the full film gate, and then one large slit for the T setting, which is why the only option is really to use the T setting (essentially open flash technique) or a leaf shutter lens with the focal plane shutter open.

Open flash technique like this is quite manageable indoors or outdoors at night. As long as the flash is about 4-5 stops over ambient and you can open and close the shutter quickly, you can avoid ghosting from the ambient light.

Kino · Sep 1, 2007

Have you ever thought of actually using a flash bulb?

Not being snide, just curious. They can still be purchased on Ebay quite easily.

(now, you KNEW someone was going to ask this question, didn't you?)

juan · Sep 1, 2007

Kino said:
Have you ever thought of actually using a flash bulb?

Not being snide, just curious. They can still be purchased on Ebay quite easily.

(now, you KNEW someone was going to ask this question, didn't you?)

They have to be FP flash bulbs - the regular flash bulbs won't sync, either.

I really don't think there's a practical way to take flash photos with the focal plane shutter unless you can work the trick of opening the shutter on T and firing off the flash independently as David outlined.
juan

Kino · Sep 1, 2007

FP flash (strobe) technology exists, but only in dedicated strobes on SLRs and PS cameras, however, I do not know of it existing on commercial photographic strobes outside of scientific circles.

A little reading:

http://www.photozone.de/3Technology/flashtec5.htm

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/#fp

and finally, the pattern generator for the truly ambitious, who wish to build their own PF multi tube, microsecond sequencing strobe.

http://www-esd.fnal.gov/esd/catalog/main/Lcrynim/1607-spec.htm

Myself, I would invest in a leaf shutter lens, but I am lazy in that regard.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 1, 2007

Yes--a bit of a digression, but this is how you can have the high sync speeds on modern SLRs with dedicated sequencing flash units, but usually they can't do that at maximum flash power, because the flash can't recycle that fast, which works against the purpose of balancing flash with ambient.

Leaf shutters are better in this regard, because the shutter speed and flash power are independent, and you can use the fastest shutter speed (except in a few limited cases) and full flash power to balance strobe against a strong light source like daylight.

freygr · Sep 3, 2007

I have a 3 1/4 by 4 1/4 speed grafic but it's has become broken. But one of the curtain openings was a full frame, so electronic flash my be possible.

engelfoto · Sep 3, 2007

Kino said:
Have you ever thought of actually using a flash bulb?

Not being snide, just curious. They can still be purchased on Ebay quite easily.

(now, you KNEW someone was going to ask this question, didn't you?)

It has crossed my mind, heheh

It's just that it's such an inefficient thing for what I like to do with my LF camera.

But you know what, I'm gonna do it anyway... get those long burning bulbs and start playing.

Oh and I did play around with the T setting and managed to get some nice shots. It's amazing how classic they look...like those Adams / Halsman Polaroid portraits from the '50s.

Graflex Speed Graphic Rear Shutter Flash trigger problem

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Graflex Speed Graphic Rear Shutter Flash trigger problem

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