Graflex Grafmatic 4X5 6 sheet holder

John Wiegerink · Feb 21, 2017

I have never used a Grafmatic back in any way, shape or form and was wondering if they are worth having for a field camera. Pros and cons welcome! Also, does anyone know if they will slide-in and work in a 4X5 Toyo spring back?

GregW · Feb 21, 2017

I just got one recently and have used it four times. Once you get familiar with it it's very convenient. Packs smaller than 6 holders even if you need to bring along a box of film to reload it. I'll be keeping my eye out for another one.

John Wiegerink · Feb 21, 2017

GregW said:
I just got one recently and have used it four times. Once you get familiar with it it's very convenient. Packs smaller than 6 holders even if you need to bring along a box of film to reload it. I'll be keeping my eye out for another one.

That sounds good and I want it for less to lug since it's for a field camera. Two would give me 12 exposures, which would be enough for most scenes. I'm just wondering how they fit the Toyo 4X5 back. The Toyo spring-back has a high lip on the non-entrance side and I don't know if the lip of the Grafmatic will go over that. That's why I ask if anyone had used one on a Toyo spring-back before.

dmschnute · Feb 21, 2017

John Wiegerink said:
I have never used a Grafmatic back in any way, shape or form and was wondering if they are worth having for a field camera. Pros and cons welcome! Also, does anyone know if they will slide-in and work in a 4X5 Toyo spring back?

I have four -- love them! Wouldn't be without. I once used them with a Crown Graphic at a local Historical-Museum event (I wanted to look 'historical'), and someone asked if it was a digital back. Whoever invented this contraption was really thinking -- it is quite ingenious in concept and function.

Just a few observations --

I had anticipated that loading the septums would be a real pain. Not so. Buckle the sheet slightly and snap an inch or so under the rails and slide it in.

I do not believe I would want to use it on a camera without a Graflok back. While it will go under the spring back of my Crown, it is half again the thickness of an ordinary holder and it feels like pushing it to the limit. Also, it is possible to lift it away from the body when changing. Not sure how it would work on other equipment -- I won't attempt to force it on my wood view camera.

There is a service manual on the Graflex web site. Paraffin wax is specified for the dark slide and perhaps other sliding points. Cleans up nicely. Not sure I would want to take it apart; seems rather intricate.

John Wiegerink · Feb 21, 2017

View attachment 173597

dmschnute said:
I have four -- love them! Wouldn't be without. I once used them with a Crown Graphic at a local Historical-Museum event (I wanted to look 'historical'), and someone asked if it was a digital back. Whoever invented this contraption was really thinking -- it is quite ingenious in concept and function.

Just a few observations --

I had anticipated that loading the septums would be a real pain. Not so. Buckle the sheet slightly and snap an inch or so under the rails and slide it in.

I do not believe I would want to use it on a camera without a Graflok back. While it will go under the spring back of my Crown, it is half again the thickness of an ordinary holder and it feels like pushing it to the limit. Also, it is possible to lift it away from the body when changing. Not sure how it would work on other equipment -- I won't attempt to force it on my wood view camera.

There is a service manual on the Graflex web site. Paraffin wax is specified for the dark slide and perhaps other sliding points. Cleans up nicely. Not sure I would want to take it apart; seems rather intricate.

My spring-back has just 1 inch clearance

, but the lip is what I worry about most since I see the Grafmatic has a step-up, which forms a higher longer lip

on top.

summicron1 · Feb 21, 2017

grafmatics are mostly a convenience and speed thing -- they were made for press use. I like them with my 4 by 5 pinhole because I don't need to haul a load of film holders to get 12 shots. They also make using my speed graphic a very easy and less clumsy deal. Be sure to hold the camera facing up when working the mechanism because sometimes the spring pushing the used septum back is weak and it can jam.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2017

Once one has learned to use the Grafmatics properly and smoothly, they are quite useful. Reloading the septums into the Grafmatics in the wrong direction in a changing bag can really be frustrating. Do not bother to ask me how I know.

shutterfinger · Feb 21, 2017

dmschnute said:
There is a service manual on the Graflex web site.

Incorrect, I asked Rich to post it on his site and he obliged. http://www.southbristolviews.com/ photo related Graflex manuals and more.
Instructions are on Graflex.org https://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/grafmatic/
The 4x5 Grafmatic for Spring/Graflok/International backs is 4.8 inches wide, 7.5 inches long not including the handle or lockout lever, and .96 inches thick at the light trap ridge.
It should just fit into the Toyo spring back.

Auto wax can be used to lubricate the drawers, spetums, and darkslide. Apply and wipe off as if waxing a car.

John Wiegerink · Feb 21, 2017

shutterfinger said:
Incorrect, I asked Rich to post it on his site and he obliged. http://www.southbristolviews.com/ photo related Graflex manuals and more.
Instructions are on Graflex.org https://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/grafmatic/
The 4x5 Grafmatic for Spring/Graflok/International backs is 4.8 inches wide, 7.5 inches long not including the handle or lockout lever, and .96 inches thick at the light trap ridge.
It should just fit into the Toyo spring back.

Auto wax can be used to lubricate the drawers, spetums, and darkslide. Apply and wipe off as if waxing a car.

I'm not to worried about the thickness part, but I am worried that the Grafmatic might not slide in far enough due to the raised lip on my spring-back and the slightly longer length of the top of the Grafmatic. See the second thumbnail picture where I have typed on the lip. Click it to enlarge.

shutterfinger · Feb 21, 2017

I missed that second photo.
The service manual cover photo

A- 90° step down from film plane edge .19 inch/4.83mm
B- 45° bevel outward from film plane .2 inch/5mm wide, bottom edge of 45° bevel .08 inch/2mm from 90° step.
C- outside edge to 45° bevel top edge .068 inch/1.74mm.

Does this help?
\_|

John Wiegerink · Feb 21, 2017

shutterfinger said:
I missed that second photo.
The service manual cover photo
View attachment 173599
A- 90° step down from film plane edge .19 inch/4.83mm
B- 45° bevel outward from film plane .2 inch/5mm wide, bottom edge of 45° bevel .08 inch/2mm from 90° step.
C- outside edge to 45° bevel top edge .068 inch/1.74mm.

Does this help?
\_|

I might just have to buy one and try it. I can always sell it for near what I paid. I hope?

shutterfinger · Feb 21, 2017

Should have 6 unbent spetums. They usually run $75 to $125 and hold their value.

EdSawyer · Feb 22, 2017

They are great. Chances are they will that spring back fine, though if you can take it off and use Graflok sliders that's even better. I have 8 Grafmatics, they are superb devices. Not hard to take apart and clean/overhaul if needed. For lubrication, wax as mentioned, or also light oil sometimes works well too (like gun/clock oil). I've used them under spring backs before but usually use the graflok sliders to hold them on.

Andrej Gregov · Feb 22, 2017

John, from your photos it appears the "lip" you mention is what the back of a (normal) film holder hits when you slide it in? If true, the Grafmatic behaves exactly the same. I doubt you will have issues with the back fitting. Persaonlly I have no issues sliding them below the ground glass (Arca Swiss F line).

I do enjoy using them. A few extra notes:
-Condition is all over the map with grafmatics. You should expect for every 2-3 you buy, you'll get a dud (just doesn't work well any longer or never did)
-They can jam (though not often) when in the field. Really a pain if they jam open and you have exposed negs in other septums. Probably depends most on condition of the back.
-Grafmatics number each neg which cuts a little into your film image plane. Some people manually remove the counters

That said, I do like using them. They're especially great if you like shooting both color and B&W. It's super then to work with just a few backs in the field versus 6 film holders.

shutterfinger · Feb 22, 2017

John Wiegerink · Feb 22, 2017

shutterfinger said:
View attachment 173644
View attachment 173645

shutterfinger,
Thanks for those pix. According to what I see here I'm beginning to think it won't work in the Toyo spring-back. The 3/16" high section of your image will not make it all the way to the stop in my film back due to the longer edge and 45 degree bevel running into the 1/2" high lip shown in my No.2 thumbnail. If my lip edge/butt edge of my spring-back were 3/16" high or less then it would allow the Grafmatic to clear the lip on the back.

shutterfinger · Feb 22, 2017

I agree. If that stop is 1/2 inch high its a NO GO. A little trimming with a Dremel is in order.

Johnkpap · Feb 22, 2017

I have used mine with both a old Speedgraphic spring back and a Arca Swiss Type AB (old type) Spring back with no issues, should be fine on a TOYO.

Why would anyone remove the counter wheel ? that takes away the charm of a graphmatic neg.

Johnkpap

Sirius Glass · Feb 22, 2017

I use the Grafmatics on my Pacemaker Speed Graphic. I also had a Grafmatic back adapter added to the rotating back of my Graflex Model D so that I can use the Grafmatics on both cameras.

John Wiegerink · Feb 22, 2017

Johnkpap said:
I have used mine with both a old Speedgraphic spring back and a Arca Swiss Type AB (old type) Spring back with no issues, should be fine on a TOYO.

Why would anyone remove the counter wheel ? that takes away the charm of a graphmatic neg.

Johnkpap

John,
Click on my second thumbnail above and you'll see the high ridge or lip that we're talking about. I'm pretty sure it won't let the Grafmatic go in far enough. Look at your Speed Graphic and you won't see the high edge or lip. Of course I could be wrong? At least my wife says I am most of the time.

Johnkpap · Feb 23, 2017

Sorry I missed that...... this may be of some help

https://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/accessories.html#Grafmatic

There is a graphmatic back that won't fit any standard back, i had one given to me many years ago, I ueed it for spar parts as
some parts fit the standard back eg the septums and the dark slide. You might just have one of them

Johnkpap

mweintraub · Feb 23, 2017

I bought a Busch Pressman kit and it came with one. I had no clue what it was until I was researching all that came in the kit and I'm super excited to use it. Plan on getting more!

I flipped out when I saw this video:

shutterfinger · Feb 23, 2017

Grafmatics came in 2 versions for 4x5, 1268 for Graphic which is Spring Backs and Graflok/International Backs and 1168 for Graflex Backs found on Graflex SLR's and Speed/Crown Graphic cameras.
The 1168 is wider than the 1268 and will not fit into a standard/graphic back.

The big question everyone is missing is how far is it from the tall wall at the end of the spring back to the light trap valley?

The ruler laying flat on this 1268 Grafmatic was squared to the end of the grafmatic with a perpendicular straight edge.

John Wiegerink · Feb 23, 2017

shutterfinger said:
Grafmatics came in 2 versions for 4x5, 1268 for Graphic which is Spring Backs and Graflok/International Backs and 1168 for Graflex Backs found on Graflex SLR's and Speed/Crown Graphic cameras.
The 1168 is wider than the 1268 and will not fit into a standard/graphic back.

The big question everyone is missing is how far is it from the tall wall at the end of the spring back to the light trap valley?
View attachment 173693
The ruler laying flat on this 1268 Grafmatic was squared to the end of the grafmatic with a perpendicular straight edge.

John Wiegerink · Feb 23, 2017

Shutterfinger,
That's the photo that solves the mystery. It looks like your rule say 5" 27/32. I used my rule and my measurement show 5" 16/32. So it's definitely not going to work in my spring-back unless I grind that lip down like was suggested. I think I'll just use my regular film holders for now and see how I get along before I do any grinding. Thanks for all the help guys and especially you shutterfinger.
John

Graflex Grafmatic 4X5 6 sheet holder

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