Graflex, Crown Graphic and a 400mm lens?

Jan-Peter · Feb 26, 2017

Hi, analogue friends;

I am using a Graflex, Crown Graphic, with a 75mm, 105mm, 150mm und a 250mm lens.

My question: May I use or fit a 400mm lens, e.g. a Fujinon 8/400mm Copal 1 lens?? - Or is the bellow of my Graflex too short??

Are there extensions reels for the Graflex types??

Would a Toyo field or a Wista field camera do a better job??

Thanks a lot for any answer!

Jan-Peter from Germany

removed account4 · Feb 26, 2017

if the lens is a TELE design you can do it.
i regularly use a 15" tele optar on my speed graphic with no issue at all ( 15" is 381mm )
from what i remember, the speed or crown graphics do not have enough bellows to go out 15"
i have a toyo 45cx and its bellows might not be long enough for that long a lens**, no idea of the other toyo field or wista cameras.

** i can't use a converted 210/370 symmar converted to 370, it takes like 440+mm of bellows and the view camera doesn't have it ...
no idea where the focus nodes are in your fujinon or the type of photography ( close or at infinity ) you will be doing.
some teleoptars are found in shutters on the bay i never used to see them, now they come up more often.

good luck !

Dan Fromm · Feb 26, 2017

A 4x5 Crown Graphic's maximum extension is 12.5 " (= 317 mm). The longest lens offered for 4x5 Crowns was the 15"/5.6 (381/5.6) Tele-Optar, a rebadged Wollensak Tele-Raptar. If you want a period telephoto lens for your Crown, look for one. There are more modern telephoto lenses around that focal length that will work on it too. Here is a list of links to sources of information on lenses, mainly large format. https://1drv.ms/w/s!AggQfcczvHGNh20tYC0PTw-0u69C

Look among them for links to information on Fuji, Nikon and Schneider lenses; these are the companies that made modern tele lenses (Fuji and Nikon, all teles; Schneider, Tele-Arton). You need to know candidate lenses' flange-focal distances to check against candidate cameras' maximum extensions.

shutterfinger · Feb 26, 2017

Jan-Peter said:
My question: May I use or fit a 400mm lens, e.g. a Fujinon 8/400mm Copal 1 lens?? - Or is the bellow of my Graflex too short??

http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/pacemaker-crown-graphic.html
1 inch=25.4mm; 12.5*25.4=317.5
Making a lens board that puts the lens mount 125 millimeters out from the front standard should give enough extension to focus a 400mm lens but you might get vignetting.

ransel · Feb 26, 2017

I am thinking that the Crown Graphic has a tad over 300mm of bellows draw. You would need a good 400mm to use a 400mm lens, unless it is as jnanian says, a tele. I think my 15" (380mm) tele focuses at infinity at about 240mm or so.

Leigh B · Feb 26, 2017

shutterfinger said:
http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/pacemaker-crown-graphic.html
1 inch=25.4mm; 12.5*25.4=317.5

While that equation is valid, it's not relevant.

As Dan mentioned, the critical dimension is the Flange Focal Length of the lens, i.e. from lensboard to film.

On a telephoto design, the FFL is much shorter than the optical focal length. That's why telephotos exist.

- Leigh

shutterfinger · Feb 26, 2017

Leigh B said:
While that equation is valid, it's not relevant.

How so, surface skimmer?
click on the associated link in the post. the 4x5 Crown Graphic has 12 1/2 inches of bellows draw!

Other statements in this thread are correct.

Leigh B · Feb 26, 2017

shutterfinger said:
click on the associated link in the post. the 4x5 Crown Graphic has 12 1/2 inches of bellows draw!

Because bellows draw is not related to flange focal distance for a telephoto design.

Obviously you don't understand the difference.

- Leigh

shutterfinger · Feb 26, 2017

Leigh B said:
Obviously you don't understand the difference.

In your eyes only.

Leigh B · Feb 26, 2017

shutterfinger said:
In your eyes only.

You made the error, not I.

- Leigh

shutterfinger · Feb 26, 2017

Post 1 question "My question: May I use or fit a 400mm lens, e.g. a Fujinon 8/400mm Copal 1 lens?? - Or is the bellow of my Graflex too short??"
Telescopic did not appear until post 2.
Correct flange distance cannot be achieved if the bellows are too short.
I responded to post 1 question only, not others comments until you waged your bashing.

Read the post.

removed account4 · Feb 26, 2017

Leigh B said:
While that equation is valid, it's not relevant.

what SF was suggesting is making a top hat lensboard for a longer focal length lens
it is perfectly relevant if the OP doesn't want to use a telephoto, but the fujinon 400 he already has.
it is prefectly obvious SF knows exactly what he is talking about seeing the OP was specifically asking
about his fujinon... and the rest of us have just suggested other lenses that are telephotos, not solving
the problem at hand ( using the lens he already has ).

Dan Fromm · Feb 26, 2017

shutterfinger said:
Making a lens board that puts the lens mount 125 millimeters out from the front standard should give enough extension to focus a 400mm lens but you might get vignetting.

A top hat lens board? On a Graphic? Has there ever been such a thing?

A 400 mm lens of normal construction -- in this context, not telephoto -- needs around 400 mm of extension to focus to infinity. How much depends on where the flange is relative to the rear node. Fine, wonderful. But how about focusing closer?

Leigh B · Feb 26, 2017

shutterfinger said:
Telescopic did not appear until post 2.

Wow. You really are out to lunch. Two categorically wrong statements in one post.

You don't even know the correct terminology.

A "tele" photographic lens is "telephoto", not "telescopic".

shutterfinger said:
Correct flange distance cannot be achieved if the bellows are too short.

That statement is correct, but your previous comments were about optical photo length, not flange focal distance.

- Leigh

removed account4 · Feb 26, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
A top hat lens board? On a Graphic? Has there ever been such a thing?

A 400 mm lens of normal construction -- in this context, not telephoto -- needs around 400 mm of extension to focus to infinity. How much depends on where the flange is relative to the rear node. Fine, wonderful. But how about focusing closer?

dan, if that's the case you need a longer hat, more like a stovepipe hat than a bowler

Leigh B · Feb 26, 2017

jnanian said:
what SF was suggesting is making a top hat lensboard for a longer focal length lens
it is perfectly relevant if the OP doesn't want to use a telephoto, but the fujinon 400 he already has.

The masssive Fuji lens list at http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byfl.htm
only lists two lenses of 400mm focal length, both f/8 and both in the T series, meaning telephoto.

Their Flange Focal Distances are listed as 259.2mm or 252.4mm.

There are no non-telephoto lenses listed at 400m focal length.

- Leigh

removed account4 · Feb 26, 2017

Leigh B said:
The masssive Fuji lens list at http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byfl.htm
only lists two lenses of 400mm focal length, both f/8 and both in the T series, meaning telephoto.

Their Flange Focal Distances are listed as 259.2mm or 252.4mm.

There are no non-telephoto lenses listed at 400m focal length.

- Leigh

thank you leigh
while i go to the subclub for my sub-mini needs ( for almost 20 years )
i have never been there to browse large format lens data.
while i have been using LF for decades, i am rather ignorant and lacking
about modern lenses ( and old ones too ). i know my handfuls of lenses, i know of lenses i have MADE MYSELF,
a smattering of mount a lens on a camera info, more wollensak vintage lens info that i care to remember, and silly stuff
like, the kodak portriat lens has 1 element ( group? rear barrel? ), but i know absolutely nothing about fujinon lenses
( other than their soft focus lens seems to be a sleeper ).
thanks for letting me know fujinon only make telephoto lenses in that FL, and that there is more than subminiature
stuff on that website ! its like the 8mmmettadirectory having information on xerox machines, or stereo 3D photography.

cheers !

shutterfinger · Feb 26, 2017

Leigh was correct, I is a dumb sheet when it comes to Fudgie films and lens.
My responses were based on a standard focal lens not a tilliphuto.
Eyes had made an extra thick lens board for a 10 inch Wollensak standard focus for used on my Super Speed Graphic.

Miss spelling are intentional.

ChuckP · Feb 28, 2017

Well the Fuji tele 400 works great on my Toyo Field 45A and the Crown Graphic has a similar bellows length. I don't think you will have any problems unless you're trying to do closeups.

Jan-Peter · Mar 1, 2017

Dear friends;

thankyou very, very much indeed!

As what I can figure out is
- that none of you really uses a Fujinon 400mm Tele lens on a Graflex, but an old Tele-Optar, 315mm;
- that the "flange focal distance" ought to be shorter than the maximum lenght of the Graflex bellows, which actually is the case;
- meaning - as Chuck mentioned - one can use the Fujinon 400mm Tele lens on a Graflex, however, cannot set focus on close objects anymore; maybe less than eight or ten meters.

Thus I might go ahead and get me a fifth lens. Before that I should check whether stability of the bellows construction of the Graflex would allow that. - How do you reckon, comparing weighty lenses on a field camera??

Once more - thanks a lot indeed! Also thanks to shutterfinger and the other folks; many thanks!

Jan-Peter

Dan Fromm · Mar 1, 2017

Maximum extension 317 mm, FFD no more than 260 mm, available extension at least 57 mm = .14 F. It will focus to around 1:7, film-to-subject distance around 3.5 m. Don't guess, calculate!

http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/fujinon_1.html says the lens weighs 700 g. Not heavy at all.

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2017

Jan-Peter, I use a 420mm Dallmeyer telephoto (no shutter) on a Speed Graphic, it's a modified Wide angle ore-Anniversary camera and so has slightly shorter than normal bellow but there's no problems it focuses to about 15ft (5m). On my Pacemaker Speed there less of a problem.

Last Summer I checked out the two Fuji 400mm f8 Telephotos for a member here who was looking for a Telephoto, he eventually bought a Fuji 400mm f8 and the flange FL was a similar to my 420mm Dallmeyer. You need to think of the Flange FL in terms of focusing rather than the Telephoto FL.

BTW my Wista 45DX has almost the same extension as my Pacemaker and Super Graphics, so no advantage.

Ian

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
A top hat lens board? On a Graphic? Has there ever been such a thing?

Not that I know of but MPP made lens boards with a front cone, they might fit a pre or
Anniversary Speed Graphic but definitely not a Pacemaker. I'll try tomorrow.

Ian

Sirius Glass · Mar 1, 2017

jnanian said:
if the lens is a TELE design you can do it.
i regularly use a 15" tele optar on my speed graphic with no issue at all ( 15" is 381mm )
from what i remember, the speed or crown graphics do not have enough bellows to go out 15"
i have a toyo 45cx and its bellows might not be long enough for that long a lens**, no idea of the other toyo field or wista cameras.

** i can't use a converted 210/370 symmar converted to 370, it takes like 440+mm of bellows and the view camera doesn't have it ...
no idea where the focus nodes are in your fujinon or the type of photography ( close or at infinity ) you will be doing.
some teleoptars are found in shutters on the bay i never used to see them, now they come up more often.

good luck !

The 15" Tele Optar has to be used in the landscape format. The top of the image is blocked by the mirror stop in the Graflex Model D in portrait format.

Jim Noel · Mar 1, 2017

Jan-Peter said:
Hi, analogue friends;

I am using a Graflex, Crown Graphic, with a 75mm, 105mm, 150mm und a 250mm lens.

My question: May I use or fit a 400mm lens, e.g. a Fujinon 8/400mm Copal 1 lens?? - Or is the bellow of my Graflex too short??

Are there extensions reels for the Graflex types??

Would a Toyo field or a Wista field camera do a better job??

Thanks a lot for any answer!

Jan-Peter from Germany

I would make a top hat from a can. Attach it permanently to a lens board, and cut a hole in the bottom of the correct size for the shutter. I have used this solution many times over the years.

Graflex, Crown Graphic and a 400mm lens?

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