Graded vs. VC

panchromatic · Oct 27, 2005

Morning ladies/gents:

Ever since I start developing in the darkroom a have been force fed VC RC paper. Now i've been using a few different kinds and even experimented with FB (which I eventually want to completely migrate too) My question is I know some people were "raised" on graded paper. My main question is when you buy it do you need buy every paper grade? Do you need to buy 0,1,2,3,4,5 etc etc? I just see it as a heavy investment if its a new paper you wish to try out.

ann · Oct 27, 2005

No, only use grade 3 paper and make my negatives to match that paper. I think i may have a box of grade 4 sitting around. It has been on the shelve a long time and i can't remember the last time i even opened the box.

Consisitency in making negatives is critical and even IMHO when using MC papers, why have your negatives bouncing all over the place.

Ole · Oct 27, 2005

I buy only grade 2 - or grade 3 if that's easier to find.

Ideally all my negatives should print well on G2. If they don't, I'll adjust the developer to get the contrast I need.

I started with this after using only VC for many years, then realising I (almost) never used any filters when printing - so why not use fixed grade?

There are some wonderful papers to be had in fixed grade, and that alone is worth the trouble of learning to use fixed grad papers!

SuzanneR · Oct 27, 2005

I was raised on graded papers, and at the time, pretty much bought 2 and 3, and maybe 4... if memory serves. I don't think you can buy them in as many grades as you used to. VC fiber papers are really much better than they were then, and have the advantage of being able to use different grades in different areas of your photograph.

mmcclellan · Oct 27, 2005

Ryan,

I keep 1,2, and 3 on hand, but shoot my negs to print well on g2. If there is more than a one grade deviation from that, I find the neg is usually not worth printing.

I also keep VC on hand as split contrast printing is often necessary. As a rule, though, I use a lot more g2 than anything else, only occasionally going hard or soft to finalize the print.

Hope this helps! By the way, I would drop RC totally and just go FB 100%. If it looks good on RC, it will look better on FB. I have yet to see a print look "better" on RC paper!

Jarred McCaffrey · Oct 27, 2005

Don't forget to buy the half grades too for fine contrast control. ;-)

The reality is that graded paper is often only produced in about 3 different grades, but this will vary from paper to paper. I think (I wasn't around to see it) that back in the good old days when everyone walked to school in the snow, uphill both ways, there used to be more grades available because the market could sustain the production of more grades. Today's market doesn't purchase enough to keep more grades readily on the market.

Like a musician bending a note, if you need a grade that is close to the #2 sheet in your hand, like a #1 or #3, you can change your darkroom procedures to modify contrast: dektol/selectol, over/underexpose over/underdevelop, pray to the darkroom gods (don't forget to sacrifice a little developer as an offering), etc.

esanford · Oct 27, 2005

I migrated away from VC-RC about 15 years ago. I always have 2 boxes of graded paper--- one box of Grade 2 and another of Grade 3. I calibrated my film development time for 120 roll film so that I get the proper proof on grade 2. When I print, I do two test prints one on each grade. I compare the 2 pilot prints from each grade. The one that visually accomplishes my goal I choose to go through the final fine print process. I put the other box away.

With respect to 35mm, I calibrated my film developing time to obtain a proper proof on grade 3 because with 35 I want a "softer" negative with less grain... (shorter development time). Once I have the proofs, I use the same process as with 120.

I just built a 4X5 camera, and I will use the same process. My experience is that once I printed on FB graded paper, I will never go back to VC. My daughter took a college course in photography and the teacher had them do so-called work prints on RC-VC paper to develop a working print. Then, they went to FB to do a fine print. I spent a day with her in the darkroom and showed her that this absolutely does not work because the difference in the properties of the papers make it nearly impossible to transfer work from RC to FB. It is less expense over the long run to do everything on FB... that's been my experience. Colleges and high schools force RC because it is easier to work with, has less wash time, and it is perceived to be less expensive. If you are doing good photography using RC is like serving caviar on a paper plate.

Jarred McCaffrey · Oct 27, 2005

Wow - 4 replies while I was typing mine. These apuggers may be old fashioned, but they're quick.

SuzanneR · Oct 27, 2005

What? You didn't hear us typing??

George Papantoniou · Oct 27, 2005

I was raised on Record-Rapid, Portriga and Galerie as well as some other FB graded stuff. Have been using low grades of Record-Rapid (for special kinds of prints) and 2 or 3 for the usual stuff. I now use mostly the grades 2-3 and sometiles (but rarely) high quality VC papers...

Variable Grade papers are actually papers with two high contrast emulsions with different spectral sensibilities. This makes them react in a strange way, especially in the highlights (they tend to get harder that the rest when you print with yellow light). I also believe them to be the cause for a "printing style" I see more and more often, what I call "high contrast low grade printing" which I despise. This, and other stuff about them is what annoys me. Recent HQ VC papers are easier to live with, I admit, but still not as good as the graded papers.

I don't thing I ought to discuss the superiority of FB compared to RC. I was raised on FB, even once travelled to Germany to get my hands on some rolls (1,27m) of Ilford FB because in Belgium there wasn't any and finally decided to print a whole series of photographs smaller (50x60cm) because the Germans couldn't provide me with the needed rolls of FB paper...

modafoto · Oct 27, 2005

I use mainly VC paper as it is what was around when I started (in 2002). I am looking at Tetenal Work paper (graded) as I can get it cheap. But mainly VC fiber or RC for me. Works great and doesn't cost much more than graded (as is very good nowadays).

Morten

MurrayMinchin · Oct 27, 2005

I used to buy a bit of grade 1, lots of grade 2, and a bit of grade 3 when I used to use graded paper.

When they "improved" the original Zone VI Brilliant, my normal negatives were really contrasty on the new grade 2 using standard processing...so I tested some papers and found that Seagull printed the same as the original Brilliant. I switched brands rather than change my normal negative development time. So if you go graded...beware of "improvements"...

I have a negative I use for all my new paper - developer - toner dilution tests. The print made on Multigrade IVFB, developed in a Metol/Glycin developer and toned in selenium matches the original Zone VI Brilliant print developed in Dektol and toned in selenium.

Murray

Gerald Koch · Oct 27, 2005

If you shoot 35mm then your negatives should be developed to print on grade 3. For all other formats you should use grade 2. The reasoning being that since 35mm format is so small and requires so much magnification that negatives need to be developed less to produce finer grain. This results in less contrast hence the higher paper grade.

Once you zero in on a particular film you really don't need the other grades. You can keep a box of VC for "emergencies" if desired.

Keith Tapscott. · Oct 27, 2005

panchromatic said:
Morning ladies/gents:

Ever since I start developing in the darkroom a have been force fed VC RC paper. Now i've been using a few different kinds and even experimented with FB (which I eventually want to completely migrate too) My question is I know some people were "raised" on graded paper. My main question is when you buy it do you need buy every paper grade? Do you need to buy 0,1,2,3,4,5 etc etc? I just see it as a heavy investment if its a new paper you wish to try out.

Ilford Ilfospeed and Ilford Gallerie have a slight edge in quality over Multigrade IMO if the negative fits the paper grade. VC papers however, are more versatile and more practicable for regular use and as a stop gap.

fhovie · Oct 27, 2005

Consider this as a reply for larger than 35mm format. I keep Grade 2 on hand. I have some grade 3 but I will likely not replace it when it is gone. As my skills and consistancy improve with time (fine tuning development and exposure using a densitometer) - my need for other grades are reduced. I keep a box of VC FB on hand. Because I screw up once in a while and need grade 5. VC FB is different in look in tone and in its ability to tone than Graded paper. I like the way pyro stained negs print on graded paper. My VC paper lasts a very long time. In the event I need to tone down the contrast, I use G2 and use a water bath technique to soften the shadows. It aint rocket science - the technique is described at length everywhere here and in books like Les McLain's.

Not that this is the right way or the only way - rather than use paper grades to correct for large differences in Contrast Index of my negatives due to using one kind of film and one kind of developer to capture all kinds of Scene Brightness Ranges - I use different films and developers to match the SBR I am shooting to get the Density Range and CI I need to print on the one paper I am good at using. I shoot for a DR of 1.25 and usually hit it + or - 0.1. Others use what ever film, soup combination for everything and correct for varying CI and DR with VC or large assortments of Graded papers. This also works. I believe I am safer making consistant perfect negatives by matching film/soup combos to what I want to achieve as a less elegant but more satisfactory philosophy.

felipemorgan · Oct 27, 2005

George Papantoniou said:
I also believe them to be the cause for a "printing style" I see more and more often, what I call "high contrast low grade printing" which I despise.

Can you provide an example of "high contrast low grade" printing? I'm intrigued by this statement and would love to be referred to an example print for study.

--Philip.

df cardwell · Oct 27, 2005

Grade 2 or 3, depending on the paper you like ( some lovely paper only comes in 1 grade )

Fine adjustment is infinite, using a low conrast developer like 120, in combination with dektol

or, the adams variation of 130, with the 'hard' component

For me, grade 2 for 35 is standard: grade 3 restricts the tonal potential of the film, and today's films are so fine, the 'old fashioned' prescription for finest grain is obsolete. Besides, grain is not the obsession to me it is to many. I prefer a full toned print, even if it limits my prints to 16 x 20.

Look at kentmere or bergger graded paper for a real education !

With a reasonable, but not obsessive, amount of control there is no need for VC paper, and the chaos it represents.
.

Charles Webb · Oct 28, 2005

I have tried most everything available, but still use only 2 & 3 graded paper.
I like to print on a glossy or satin stock, because I believe they hold and display the best information. It is very difficult to print a "boogered" up negative and not have it show on a glossy print. Printing on glossy surface makes me pay attention to what I am doing throughout the whole process.
I have never found any need what so ever for VC paper. I feel that the regular use of VC is a "crutch" for not properly seeing light, exposing and developing ones negatives. Once again, my opinion! Charlie......

George Papantoniou · Oct 28, 2005

felipemorgan said:
Can you provide an example of "high contrast low grade" printing? I'm intrigued by this statement and would love to be referred to an example print for study.

--Philip.

I am referring to the prints that LOOK contrasty, but still retain full texture and detail in the highlights (although might not be the same for the shadows). I personally prefer staightforward prints. If a scene had a low (or high) brightness range, I agree that something has to be done for it to get better, but there are limits...

eumenius · Oct 28, 2005

I find that I almost never use any paper grade except normal The graded paper just keeps up one's standarts in exposure and development, that's my opinion. This fumbling around with filtration seems to be invented by aliens, too. Well, the VC maybe is a good thing, but FB graded paper is cheaper here (Russia) and easier for me to use. I almost never printed any VC, only in England on a scientific trip - but those were electron microphotographs

Cheers,
Zhenya

dancqu · Oct 29, 2005

panchromatic said:
Do you need to buy 0,1,2,3,4,5 etc etc?

There is no grade 0 paper. Ilford has Galerie glossy 1-4
and matt 1-3. IIRC, Freestyle has or did have their paper
1-5. Most brands supply 2 and 3 and some 4. A few papers
are only available in one grade.

Beer's and A. Adams version of Ansco 130 are VC developers.
That is one way to have, depending on the paper, grades 1-3,
2-4, etc. I've read, 11/2 to 4 from one grade of paper. Another
method is SLIMT; a very simple and quick way to vary the
contrast. Direct negatives, flashing, and water bath
methods can be used.

I've worked with VC; back in the late 50s and around
five years ago when I began wading back into photography.
I've shelved all my VC paper and switched to Graded. A vision
from many many years ago kept popping into mind. A commercial
lab I visited now and then had an almost unbelievably well
lighted darkroom. I'd never seen such a brightly lite work
area. Mix chemistry, size paper, see the print come up
under good light, etc, no problem.

My lab area is now much better lighted. I made an exposure
test and found I can up the wattage yet more. In my opinion
Graded is worth it just for the lighting it affords. Dan

Daniel Lawton · Oct 30, 2005

Wow! I guess I'm in the minority on this topic but I prefer VC paper for its flexibility and ability to fine tune contrast in small increments. With VC paper and a set of filters you have an infinite number of contrast levels from 00 to #5 and with 35mm or 120 roll film I find this to be a huge benefit. As opposed to a large format shooter who can specifically develop each frame individually and match it to a certain paper grade I have anywhere from 15-36 frames that may have been shot on different days and in vastly different lighting conditions. Needless to say I have to choose a film developing procedure that provides the best "average" exposure for all the frames and then transform these negatives into prints in the darkroom. The best way to do this IMO is split grade printing on VC paper and it is the method I use on almost every print. To limit myself to one or two grades would be a limiting factor on some occasions.

Graded vs. VC

panchromatic

ann

Ole

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SuzanneR

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mmcclellan

Jarred McCaffrey

esanford

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modafoto

MurrayMinchin

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Gerald Koch

Keith Tapscott.

fhovie

felipemorgan

df cardwell

Charles Webb

George Papantoniou

eumenius

dancqu

Daniel Lawton

Graded vs. VC

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