Graded paper and Variable Contrast Paper..same quality?

I think I have to get into the darkroom more and off this damm site.

I had a dream last night and in the dream, I walked into a photo store, in a large shopping mall, to my great suprise was hundreds of boxes of Ilfomar in all sizes, and all dated as fresh, as I moved down the corridor, Cycora, Elite, Portriga and Ectalure. All fresh , all sizes , I thought I was in heaven.

I am curious what does this dream mean :munch:

matti said:

What would happen if I used a negative with Yellow stain like from Pyrocat-HD and used the filters on graded paper?
/matti

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The yellow/brown stain acts as added density by filtering out some blue/green light. As Ole says, this leads to greater contrast in the negative.
I have a few thin PMK negatives that have been saved by this - they print quite well on grade 3 paper, but not well at all on VC paper.
I have recently started using graded paper myself and I like it better than my VC paper ( Forte VC vs. Kentmere graded paper). I suspect this has much more to do with the differences in the surface texture of the 2 papers than anything else.

Bob Carnie said:

I think I have to get into the darkroom more and off this damm site.

I had a dream last night and in the dream, I walked into a photo store, in a large shopping mall, to my great suprise was hundreds of boxes of Ilfomar in all sizes, and all dated as fresh, as I moved down the corridor, Cycora, Elite, Portriga and Ectalure. All fresh , all sizes , I thought I was in heaven.

I am curious what does this dream mean :munch:

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Bob:

Did you drive there in a Delorean, with Michael J. Fox?



Matt

Steve Sherman said:

Without getting into a long explanation pro or con, stand development can have a greater effect on the paper's perceived contrast than any one single function. Grade 2 paper can be made to appear grade 4 paper just because of stand development and edge effects.

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Hey Steve, how are you doing stand development with paper? Letting it sit in the tray or placing the sheet in a vertical tube?

I've never tried the vertical tube with developing paper but maybe there's something to that.

Alex Hawley said:

I've never tried the vertical tube with developing paper but maybe there's something to that.

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Sorry for the confusion Alex, I was speaking of stand development of negatives and the perceived paper contrast.

Now that you mention it, stand development with paper likely would yield reduced paper contrast. So many times I find little techniques have the exact opposite effect from negative to positive.

Cheers!

Yes, that's what I'm doing in Ansco 130 in a regular tray- agitating the negative for a period of time, then allowing it to sit still for a period of time. I get results that are similar to water bath - for the same reasons, to allow the highlights to develop just a little more.
juan

Steve Sherman said:

Now that you mention it, stand development with paper likely would yield reduced paper contrast. So many times I find little techniques have the exact opposite effect from negative to positive.

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Yeah, you're probably right Steve. Thanks for the thought anyway.

Just been through exactly the same angst as you Phototone - I've just returned to the darkroom after 25 years and was dreading the thought of using VC paper - after all, nothing could replace the old Galerie grade 3 could it? Well, I've just produced the best quality print of my life using Ilford Multigrade FB1V - I even tried printing the same neg on some graded Kentmere and Oriental for comparison but they just didn't have the depth and range of tones that the Multigrade produced - can't believe I'm saying this! And the best thing of all is that I'll be able to buy this paper for at least the next 10 years.....won't I......?? Try printing the best neg you have on both types for comparison, that will answer all your questions.
Patricia

"Stand Development" of paper is a technique I often use. My normal development is rarely below 3 mins. Stand Development (sometimes known as Draging) will lower the contrast of the print but also (in most cases) produce a cooler tone. I will usually use a normal agitation for the first min or so and then sink the print to the bottom of the tray for the remaining 2, 3 or 4, etc. mins with no agitation.

patricia de roeck said:

Just been through exactly the same angst as you Phototone - I've just returned to the darkroom after 25 years and was dreading the thought of using VC paper - after all, nothing could replace the old Galerie grade 3 could it? Well, I've just produced the best quality print of my life using Ilford Multigrade FB1V - I even tried printing the same neg on some graded Kentmere and Oriental for comparison but they just didn't have the depth and range of tones that the Multigrade produced - can't believe I'm saying this! And the best thing of all is that I'll be able to buy this paper for at least the next 10 years.....won't I......?? Try printing the best neg you have on both types for comparison, that will answer all your questions.
Patricia

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Patricia, I think that about sums it up. Obviously, at least to your eye and to mine as well, the quality of variable contrast papers has improved tremendously over the years. Many years ago, my main paper was grade 2 Kodabromide, flirting occassionally with Agfa Brovira. Looking back on some of those prints and comparing them with prints made from the same negatives with modern variable contrast papers, I can honestly say that the newer prints look far better. My technique has improved over the years, but that is only part of the story. The ability to control contrast with a color head, in addition to burning and dodging with different contrast filters, has made a lot of things possible that could not be done as easily and controllably, or even at all, with graded papers.

I recently tried a package of #3 Galerie. It was great for the negatives that fit its contrast range but they are too few for me to switch and VC Ilford and Oriental WT fiber look similar in quality; just a different curve.

patricia de roeck said:

Try printing the best neg you have on both types for comparison, that will answer all your questions.

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That's a good point, because if you don't try it for yourself, how will you ever know?

I had always used the original Zone VI Brilliant then changed to Ilford Galerie when Brilliant II came out, because Brilliant II's grade 1 moved to almost where the original Brilliant's grade 2 used to be. This frustrated me because I had won a hard fought battle with the zone system and the new Brilliant gave me hardly any wiggle room at the soft end of things. Switching to Galerie allowed me to keep my negative developing times the same.

About six years ago I was in Calgary and saw some photographs of the Rockies on greeting cards by Craig Richards. The photographs and the quality of the reproductions were so good, I just had to search him out in Banff on our way home. When I found out he was using VC paper I just couldn't believe it! My experience with the stuff was from working with RC paper in the darkroom of our local small newspaper in the early 80's and there was NO WAY that stuff could even come close to Brilliant or Galerie!!

Today I use selenium toned Multigrade IVFB (in an Ansco 120-ish Glycin developer) and I think it stands shoulder to shoulder with both the original Brilliant and Galerie.

Another thing I like about my new paper is that I can order one 50 sheet box of 16x20, then use it for all my printing...from 5x7 prints all the way up to 16x20 prints, so all my printing is done on the same emulsion batch and I don't have to buy a box for every size or grade anymore. (I have to mail order all my supplies, and doing this keeps money in my pocket...although that's way down on my list of priorities when it comes to print quality!)

I did what Patricia suggests and was more than pleased with the results, and I can now dodge and burn at different contrast grades giving me even more control than I used to have

Murray