Gold toning silver gelatin prints

[aconbere]

I’ve been attempting to gold tone fomabrom 112 and failing.

I got a liter of toner from my photography school. I believe it was bostok and sullivan mixed in 2022.

My first attempt I took a section of a print I made earlier this year. Soaked the print for 5-10 to hydrate the emulsion and then put it into the gold toner for 5 minutes of constant agitation. There was no visible difference in the print.

My second attempt I replenished the toner with 2ml of .2% gold chloride and put my print into the toner for 20 minutes of constant agitation. I also cut the test print in half to compare. There was no visible change.

Attached are the results of the last test (top is toned, bottom is untoned).

So! Would love any advice folks might have or what to try next.

Thanks!

 

[aconbere]

Obvious next attempt is to add more gold chloride! But I guess I’m not even sure what to expect.

 

[mshchem]

From my limited experience with gold toner, specifically Kodak Blue Toner, Kodak claimed shelf life was a few weeks. 1 qt of toner had something like 0.4gram of gold chloride. Pretty expensive stuff.

 

[aconbere]

I know very little! My understanding is that this liter has been bouncing around the lab for a few years and constantly replenished. (my teacher suggested testing and then replenishing with 2ml).

 

[mshchem]

Also bromide papers don't really change much except more Dmax. Again I'm not an expert

 

[mshchem]

Kodak Technical Documents • 125px

125px.com

Check out the toning black and white materials G-23

 

[mshchem]

Kodak in G-23, recommends mixing right before use and using hot, 100°F. I found this kinda loony as it softens the emulsion. If you want dramatic color change use Fomatone fiber base paper

 

[aconbere]

Kodak in G-23, recommends mixing right before use and using hot, 100°F. I found this kinda loony as it softens the emulsion. If you want dramatic color change use Fomatone fiber base paper

Sweet, thanks for the resources. Looks like I have a couple paths to try.

 

[koraks]

Some papers tone very readily. Others don't. Warmtone papers can be expected to respond much more strongly to toners than neutral/cold tone papers. It also makes a difference how they're developed; if you develop a neutral tone paper for warmer tones (i.e. reduced development; shorter and/or with more dilute developer) the print will also tone more readily. I remember Adox MCP responded quite strongly to gold toning; I think I tried Fomabrom as well at some point and it didn't do much. I mostly use gold toner for salted paper prints however, which tone very easily. Silver gelatin papers respond far more subtly.

 

[MattKing]

the old Ilford MGIV RC paper was specifically designed to give very consistent results across a wide spectrum of developers and processing conditions. But the consequence of that is that it was/is resistant to change when toning. The new MG Classic/V RC is more susceptible to toning.
In other words, tonability can be designed in.

 

[DREW WILEY]

My recent experiments with Foma "neutral" (111/112) FB paper were very disappointing with respect to gold toner. In fact, it's almost numb to that, at least my typical personal tweak of GP-1, whereas all the other FB papers I have used were distinctly impacted. Therefore, my conclusion is, this "neutral tone" Foma paper just isn't for me. It's resistant to other toners I use too. Allegedly their warm-tone papers respond differently.

Using gold chloride for cooling the tone or split toning is actually quite economical. It takes very little, even for large prints. The emulsion only absorbs so much, and therefore I use GP-1 at about 1/4 of the official formula strength, in minimum volume, and it does the same job. I use it cool. A 100ml bottle of 1% gold chloride lasts me an entire year. Yes, you do need to mix the 1:1 A&B amounts together just before use, and then discard the working solution afterwards. Don't try replenishing it. Only the separate concentrates store well.

I've been getting the gold chloride 1% solution itself from Photopgraphers Formulary. Some of this is then diluted down to the Part A stock solution - I mix up a liter of that at a time, plus a liter of B stock solution.

Matt's comments on MGIV are interesting. It was predictable; but I only used the RC version for commercial purposes intended offset reproduction in ads or brochures etc. The FB version of MGIV never impressed me at all, though I experimented with it. It toned so-so at best; I found it blaah in a number of respects - a remark which will probably irritate some people who relied on its pedestrian quality. Harman Fineprint VC was a far better product, which in my case, came to the rescue once the excellent Forte Polygrade V disappeared.

Now I mostly use MGWT and MG Cooltone. Bergger offered a malleable "neutral tone" product made by Harman which would go decently cool upon gold toning in a manner MG Classic won't; but it has unfortunately disappeared.

 

[pentaxuser]

On this channel many years ago and on a forum called FADU( Film and Darkroom User) I recall that a member called Dave Miller produced a picture of a girl on a beach. I think this was a gold toned print with the most subtle but obvious pale blue tone which gave the waves lapping the beach a very authentic pale blue look. Unfortunately he makes no mention of what paper he used for his tone nor what toner it was but I feel certain it was gold toner

I know how to find his pictures on FADU but have no idea how I retrieve his pictures which I think he must have exhibited on APUG/Photrio and I'd be surprised if he didn't exhibit maybe the same or other gold toned pictures. If so he might have given more details of what paper, toner etc he used.

He was even a moderator for a short period on APUG/Photrio before he left some 8 years ago. Some of the longer serving mods such as Matt King may remember him.

Sorry it is all a bit vague but if he did exhibit any pics here and they were gold toned it may be worth a look

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

Are you sure that was gold toning? Gold toners can either warm or cool an image, depending on the specifics. But obvious blueness is more the domain of iron toners. I have seen numerous split-toned examples from the 70's and 80's of Azo contact paper using gold chloride which gave an actual subtle blue tinge to the highlights. It was a rather unpredictable process, and Azo was quite different from typical enlarging papers.

The formula for T26 Kodak blue toner (using gold chloride) is available on the previously linked G-23 document. But the effect is probably different from split printing; and papers have changed anyway. In any event, if Foma has a suitable paper, it certainly isn't the 111/112 neutral variety.

 

[koraks]

Dave Miller produced a picture of a girl on a beach

I can find only one picture in the Gallery by him: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/houghton-mill-1.3840/
It's not the one you mean. He may have posted it elsewhere on the forum in a regular thread, but he has 3k+ posts so you'd have to wade through those to see what turns up. I did a quick Google foray but couldn't find anything on FADU that matches the description. Some more advanced Google-fu might work, but FADU isn't particularly search-friendly.

 

[pentaxuser]

I can find only one picture in the Gallery by him: https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/houghton-mill-1.3840/
It's not the one you mean. He may have posted it elsewhere on the forum in a regular thread, but he has 3k+ posts so you'd have to wade through those to see what turns up. I did a quick Google foray but couldn't find anything on FADU that matches the description. Some more advanced Google-fu might work, but FADU isn't particularly search-friendly.

Yes my fear was that he has 3k+ posts and I cannot be bothered to wade through those. As a long standing member of FADU I was able to find his "girl on a beach" quite quickly in his album which is relatively small in terms of pictures but as I said he says almost nothing about the picture so I cannot (a) be certain it was gold toned nor (b) whose paper and type it was

I have a vague notion that one of the forums I had commented on this picture thinking that the pale blue image looked more authentic than what I had seen of iron blue toned pictures. He did have an iron blue toned picture of a boat on a canal which he gave details on and said it was MGIV. While it was OK, it lacked the more authentic look of the water on the beach scene but as I said because he gave almost no details on the beach scene I cannot say it was definitely gold toned

Drew is suggesting that the blue that I had thought to be very good was likely to be iron blue toned and I cannot say he is wrong. It was just that the blue look obtained seemed different from any of the iron blue I had or have to date seen sínce

pentaxuser

 

[aconbere]

My recent experiments with Foma "neutral" (111/112) FB paper were very disappointing with respect to gold toner. In fact, it's almost numb to that, at least my typical personal tweak of GP-1, whereas all the other FB papers I have used were distinctly impacted. Therefore, my conclusion is, this "neutral tone" Foma paper just isn't for me. It's resistant to other toners I use too. Allegedly their warm-tone papers respond differently.

Using gold chloride for cooling the tone or split toning is actually quite economical. It takes very little, even for large prints. The emulsion only absorbs so much, and therefore I use GP-1 at about 1/4 of the official formula strength, in minimum volume, and it does the same job. I use it cool. A 100ml bottle of 1% gold chloride lasts me an entire year. Yes, you do need to mix the 1:1 A&B amounts together just before use, and then discard the working solution afterwards. Don't try replenishing it. Only the separate concentrates store well.

I've been getting the gold chloride 1% solution itself from Photopgraphers Formulary. Some of this is then diluted down to the Part A stock solution - I mix up a liter of that at a time, plus a liter of B stock solution.

Matt's comments on MGIV are interesting. It was predictable; but I only used the RC version for commercial purposes intended offset reproduction in ads or brochures etc. The FB version of MGIV never impressed me at all, though I experimented with it. It toned so-so at best; I found it blaah in a number of respects - a remark which will probably irritate some people who relied on its pedestrian quality. Harman Fineprint VC was a far better product, which in my case, came to the rescue once the excellent Forte Polygrade V disappeared.

Now I mostly use MGWT and MG Cooltone. Bergger offered a malleable "neutral tone" product made by Harman which would go decently cool upon gold toning in a manner MG Classic won't; but it has unfortunately disappeared.

Ha! Well supposing everything else was working that is certainly the case for me. I have some ilford warm tone fiber paper that I could try though so maybe I’ll give that a shot and see how it goes.

 

[DREW WILEY]

MGWT responds wonderfully to gold toner in terms of the density intensifying and the shadows going cooler. But don't expect any actual blueishness. I haven't gotten that since the days of Polygrade V.

 

[naaldvoerder]

I occasionally use gold toner on with print, which are essentially very warm prints. They can turn from pink or beige to a very striking gun metal blue. The toner I use is from Fotospeed (now discontinued0 and at least 10 years old.

 

[pentaxuser]

I had a look at the section of Tim Rudman's toning book on gold toning and he shows examples of what I'd regard as subtle blue and I have established that Dave Miller who left APUG to become a founding member of FADU did use gold toner

However was his picture of "Girl on Beach" gold or iron blue toned? I cannot say as yet but it was certainly different from an example of his iron blue toned print

pentaxuser

 

[naaldvoerder]

I occasionally use gold toner on with print, which are essentially very warm prints. They can turn from pink or beige to a very striking gun metal blue. The toner I use is from Fotospeed (now discontinued0 and at least 10 years old.

I meant to say ‘Lith prints” here, before !*%$# autocorrection took over….

 

[pentaxuser]

I can now confirm that the print of "Girl on the beach" by former member Dave Miller was done with gold toner. He actually mentions it in a thread on FADU

For anyone interested here's the link to it:

Film and Darkroom User

Film and Darkroom User is a UK based on-line community for traditional film and darkroom based photographic processes.

www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

For anyone interested here's the link to it

Sadly, Fadu requires a registration to read content.

 

[pentaxuser]

Sadly, Fadu requires a registration to read content.

I am puzzled here but that's maybe because I have misunderstood the FADU rules. In my case my link to the picture which I have placed in #21 takes me to the picture in question. I had assumed that this link will work for anyone clicking on iteven those not members but seemingly not. I am of course a member of FADU

So what happens when you or anyone else clicks on it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

So what happens when you or anyone else clicks on it?

I get a login screen. Since I have no account there, that's where it ends. You get to see the page because you're permanently signed in, most likely.

 

[MattKing]

My sense is that pentaxuser is, indeed, permanently signed into FADU .
FWIW, it is worth signing up there, if one is interested in darkroom printing and/or UK based film photography.