Going bessa?

The bessas come in fairly typical sizes, that might be a problem for you if you do transition to an RF. Maybe you should get a medium format RF

Did you consider the suggestion just to get an SLR with RF focus confirmation?

I heard the Bessa has an optional side grip which gives a bit more real estate for your hands. That being said, my guess is it will still be a bit small for me.

My Konica Auto S2 is pretty huge by RF standards and fits my hand okay but could use a side grip to fit my palm in.

I currently own a Nikon f90x and it has electronic RF confirmation that i pretty much "need". If not going the RF route I am considering a second F90x or something like that. The E-RF is a blessing in many situations!

Colin Corneau said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but Bessa's require batteries, no? That alone would rule out a body for me.

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Depends upon the camera. I have a Bessa R3M, with a 35mm f1.4 lens on it. I travel a lot on business, and this camera can drop into my briefcase or coat pocket and give me something to shoot with when I am away from home (I usually shoot 4x5 which doesn't fit in a pocket). The R3M has a battery to power a meter, but operates just fine (albeit without the meter) without the battery.

The 'A' cameras need the battery for the shutter, and are therefore more dependent upon the battery - but the batteries that they use are small, and it's easy to carry a spare.

Sounds like you need a Mamiya 7. :munch:

Voigtlander makes mechanical and electronically actuated shuttered rangefinder cameras for its current 35mm product line. I also prefer the mechanical shutter models. The non-automatic Voigtlander 35mm's work fine without batteries (The only automatic camera I use are older Konica SLR's that have mechanical shutters with full manual override of the shutter Priority system.)

Leica M's are wonderful and sophisticated no doubt, but the Bessa 35mm models are also all excellent and usually lower in price. They have good TTL meters (if you wish to use them), are light, well-made (all of them - even the Bessa-R), and have fabulous finders. They have some other good modern conveniences such as a little window to see the installed film canister label (this reveals the ISO of the film and type of film in case you forget after loading). These cameras also take the nicely made Voigtlander trigger winder and a variety of other useful accessories.

If you think you need one, go for it, they are popular for a good reason - they are great cameras!

Klainmeister said:

Sounds like you need a Mamiya 7. :munch:

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Haha after that recent resolution and color test shoot out between the 8x10, 4x5, the digital backs, and the 7, I think I need one myself!

And also to comment, I like the Bessa a lot, though I dont have one, I handled one briefly and it is quite nice and fast in the hand. A very good buy if you got the dough. But also keep in mind some things a range finder cant do well easily, telephoto shots, and close up work. Plus the lens get very expensive quickly if you want anything fast or wide.

Also btw, I have the screens mentioned, H and G and they do allow you to focus very quickly but you lose dof preview. The P screen is also very good as well and a bit more common than the G or H, but in truth you have to practice with with any camera to get quick at focusing it.

I'm delighted you liked the Leicaflex SL.

Actually, they are very tough, durable and reliable.
Compared, say, to a Nikon F, they might not do half a million shutter cycles without batting an eye and using them as a hammer (or a weapon) might harm the meter needle (meterless Fs and F2s have an unfair advantage there!).

So while not quite as legendarily bombproof as the Fs and F2s, one Leicaflex SL2 famously survived being ejected from a fighter jet and lying in the American desert for months before being found....

Besides camera size, there is something else that has been missed here --
Especially for low light, large aperture lens photography, the Leica has a longer baseline rangefinder than any Bessa ever made.
So if that will be your main RF use, a Leica will serve you better, with more in-focus shots.

TriXfan said:

the Leica has a longer baseline rangefinder than any Bessa ever made.

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Which Leica? The bessa T has one of the longest effective baselines on the market. I don't remember the numbers offhand, but it bests most of the Leica Ms, with exception of the M3... as I recall.

You remember incorrectly.
See Stephen Gandy, Bessa importer's website:
http://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm

According to him the Bessa RF cameras are #11 of 19 on the list of rangefinder baseline lenghts, with 10 Leicas ahead of it.
I didn't make it up or measure it, just reporting what the importer says there:

"The entire idea of Rangefinders is accurate focus. The longer the RangeFinder Base and the larger the Image Magnification size, the longer the Effective Base Length.

RF x IM = EBL

The longer the EBL, the greater the Rangefinder and focus accuracy.

The longer and faster the lens, the more important EBL becomes for accurate focus. If you are having trouble getting consistent focus with the 75/1.4 or 50/1 on your M6, you might want to try a M3 (or the M6/M7/MP .85) for increased focusing accuracy."

According to Gandy the EBL of the Bessa cameras is: 25.16
And various Leica M EBL is: 49.32
Except M3 EBL which is: 62.33 which he calls the "most accurate"

Whether this will make a difference in your shooting accuracy I can't say, but certainly if you plan to use a really fast lens f 1.2 or even a Noctilux, I suspect it might

A lot of opinions paraded here by people who have "handled" a Bessa but not owned one, and a fair bit of misinformation too.

The Bessa range represents great value and the R2/3/4 series actually have a few features that are still lacking in the M6 M7 Leicas. Like the film reminder window and the shutter lock and the Exposure lock, and a fully opening back for loading. The models designated "M" use a SR44 or LR44 battery for the exposure meter but the shutter is mechanical. The models designated "A" have an electronic shutter and won't work without a battery (same size). The "A" series can be optionally operated either as manual or AE. I'm not a prolific shooter but have had the R3A and still have the R4A (I like wide) and never had a problem with batteries even though I always carry a spare. It's probably a good idea to change the battery once a year (on your birthday or on Christmas Day or some other event that's easy to remember) but I've never felt the need to do this. The Bessa's metal shutter is marginally louder than the Leica which has a cloth shutter but either is considerably quieter than the Nikon with it's mirror slap. The TTL metering in all the Bessa range is very good. The Voigtlander lenses are also very good value and many of them are compared favourably with some Leica glass. Probably the biggest issue is to decide whether the R2 (35/50/75/90) the R3 (40/50/75/90) or the R4 (21/25/28/35/50) frame lines cover the range of lenses you'd want to use. The M6 has frame lines for 28/35/50/75/90/135.

The Bessas are not built like Sherman tanks and if you try to drive nails with one you'll break it. The Leica M6 weighs about 50% more and might just make it as a substitute hammer but I'm not going to test that theory. The build quality of the Bessas is adequate unless you abuse your gear. In size, the Bessa body is almost exactly the same as the M6 and so if you feel that is too small for your hands then the Leica is going to feel much the same, although the extra weight might make it "feel" better. Others have mentioned that there are accessory grips which attach to the baseplate and this might solve your problem. The many pages on the CameraQuest website have more information about the various models and accessories and lenses than you will ever need.
The lens you tried does partially block the viewfinder - does so on almost any rangefinder body as it's almost at the extreme end of large aperture sizes. Frankly something at maximum f2 is sufficient and isn't a problem.

The effective length of the rangefinder on the Bessa R series is less than the Leica or the Zeiss Ikon ZI. It's not a problem at normal focal lengths but above 90mm it gets problematic unless your hand is steady and your eyesight is good. My take on RF vs SLR is that the SLR wins for macro and telephoto work at 135mm and over, but the RF wins for size and weight between 15mm and 90mm focal lengths - (unless it's a Leica. My M6 weighs about the same as my Nikkormat SLR!)

Overall, I keep the Nikkormat for those special occasions when an SLR is best. I love the "feel" of the M6, but that's probably due to the heft and finish and a bit of "mystique. But for everyday use and features the Bessa is probably the best choice for me, and if I was on any sort of budget it wouldn't even be an issue - straight to the Voigtlander products.

Sure its great value ?

From Gandy's website:

"Standard production Voigtlander USA Bessa R2M or R3M black Paint bodies $769
Voigtlander 35/1.4 Nokton M $629 Vented LH-6 Lens Hood $69
Voigtlander 40/1.4 Nokton $529 Vented LH-6 Lens Hood $69
NEW Super Fast Voigtlander 50/1.1 $1049 Optional LH-7 Vented Lens Hood $109"

In addition, Mr. Gandy says this when describing the above 50/1.1 lens:

"The 50/1.1 is a good match for all Leica M mount cameras EXCEPT for cameras with a shorter rangefinder base such as the Leica / Minolta CL, Minolta CLE, and Voigtlander Bessa R4A / R4M -- unless you don't open the lens wider than f/2 shooting in the 3 to 8 foot range.
Short rangefinder baselength cameras can't focus 50mm lenses accurately and consistently IF opened up wider than f/2. However you will usually be happy with the focus wide open at 1.1 on the same camera if your subject is 20 feet or further away. "

All from: http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtlen.htm

TriXfan said:

You remember incorrectly.
See Stephen Gandy, Bessa importer's website:
http://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm

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Well I guess we have dueling links then!

http://www.cameraquest.com/VCBT.htm

The [bessa T's] rangefinder is especially interesting. With a 1.5x magnification, the Bessa T rangefinder has a longer effective baselength than Leica's fabled .72 M6 (53.7 Vs 49.86). The RF patch is large, ROUND, contrasty, and the two images have a slightly different color to make focusing that much easier. Eyeballing it, imagining a horizontal rectangle to 35mm format proportions, the view thru the RF is ABOUT 300mm. The Bessa T is the 1st non Leica made M mount capable of accurately focusing the 75/1.4 or 135/3.4 throughout the focusing range!

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Rangefinder Base length of 53.7mm: This translates to an effective rangefinder base length of 53.7mm for the 1.5x magnification Bessa T. In other words, the T's rangefinder EBL is 108% longer than standard .72 Leica M finder with an EBL of 49.32.

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Anyway, I do almost everything with available light and find the bessa T very, very easy to focus. Not as easy as my mamiya 6es but hey...

TriXfan said:

You remember incorrectly.
See Stephen Gandy, Bessa importer's website:
http://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm

According to him the Bessa RF cameras are #11 of 19 on the list of rangefinder baseline lenghts, with 10 Leicas ahead of it.

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No, keithwms was right about the Bessa-T specifically. That's not a list by baseline lengths, it's a "best of" list that takes the baseline into account. It also doesn't include the Bessa-T, for which see http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtchart.htm: 53.7 mm.

(Prewar Contax rangefinders have a longer EBL even than the M3, for that matter, though they don't really live in the same niche we're discussing here.)

Whether this will make a difference in your shooting accuracy I can't say, but certainly if you plan to use a really fast lens f 1.2 or even a Noctilux, I suspect it might

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I've been able to get away with using a Bessa-R with a 135mm lens at portrait distances, but very carefully and with fewer shots really being in critical focus. It's a real concern, IMHO, for people who expect to do a lot of wide-open-and-close-up shooting.

-NT

Thanks Nathan... and cameraquest

Mirror slap is NOT an issue!!! A steady hand IS!

Why do I like to use a rangefinder? The size! And the way it MAKES me think... it's a little different than the SLR.

I've had Zeiss Ikon, Leica M3 and M6, and Bessa R4A. For me, the best all rounder is Zeiss Ikon, and frankly, I shouldn't have sold it. The Bessas are great though, particularly if you have odd requirements for frame lines, like 40mm or 21mm/25mm. If you just want 35mm and 50mm, I do think the Ikon is the camera to go for, and it's worth stretching the budget for. It has a long effective base length, ideal for fast lenses like the 35mm f/1.4 Nokton.

Leicas obviously have their considerable charms, but the bargains don't have meters, and the cloth shutter might let in a little light. The Leicas in the Bessa/Ikon price range are old cameras and may indeed have issues. There is the Leica CL of course, but I've never had one of those, so won't comment.

Would love a Zeiss Ikon but budget doesn't really permit that. Maybe if I take on more jobs with the SLR and slowly save for the Ikon...

Tried the Bessa in the store and love the R3M due to the 1:1 vf magnification. Feels clunky though and was a bit tough to focus at times. Zeiss Ikon was like a whole different world.

That being said, would it seem weird if I said I can focus my F3 more accurately? Maybe it's what I'm used to...

dugrant153 said:

Tried the Bessa in the store and love the R3M due to the 1:1 vf magnification. Feels clunky though and was a bit tough to focus at times. Zeiss Ikon was like a whole different world.

That being said, would it seem weird if I said I can focus my F3 more accurately? Maybe it's what I'm used to...

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Try comparing focusing accuracy in lousy light conditions....

I think it's a matter of what you're used to, I recently got my first 35mm SLR (Leica R8), and I find range finders an order of magnitude easier to focus. However, I'm sure for SLR users going to range finders feel the opposite. It's just a matter of getting used to it.

I'm not sure if you're buying new or used, but a used Ikon is probably about the same price as a new Bessa. Of course, if you want new, that's your choice, and an understandable one. There is something pleasing about being the only owner, and of course that long warranty.

That is absolutely horrid to do with a rangefinder. One can do it with an SLR amazingly well.

RFs have their advantages, but the low light focusing ability is actually one of their worst attributes. Different? Yes. Easier to think that you got it right, because you cannot really tell, so you just accept the slop? Yes. Actually more accurate and precise? Hell no.

2F/2F said:

RFs have their advantages, but the low light focusing ability is actually one of their worst attributes.

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For me it is different. The VFs of the RFs I use (Mamiya 6 and bessa T) are extremely bright and.... unlensed, of course. So in low light they're as good as looking directly at the scene. The RF focusing is a cinch- certainly easier than SLR focusing in the same conditions. And I have an f/1.2 SLR lens that I like for low light, so...

In extremely low light, one has to go with scale focusing, which is also very easy. And you can do that just as well with SLRs as RFs, of course.

Enterprising photographers can always find a way to get it done, whatever their gear.

Okay this is going to get subjective, but I shoot a lot wide open (f2 usually or f1.8 or 1.4 if the lens can handle it or I really need it.)

My question is: is there a large difference between my Nikkor AI 35mm F2 (for example) at f2 and a CV lens (say a 35mm lens) at F2? I think it's alone would justify or push me away.

For wides I would usually favor an RF. 35mm though, that's only kinda / sorta wide. Very little difference probably. Not a large difference.

Well, I received the NikonF3 H2 screen and it's actually made focusing worse for me when light is low.... believe it or not. I guess maybe a G2 screen might fit the bill but at this point I think I'm done trying to make this work for low light. When there's plenty of light, it's good. I think this screen requires some amount of light to work.

That being said, I've been playing with a cheapo rangefinder and find it pretty easy to work with. I think it just takes practice and getting used to.