God given gift or just practice?

dpurdy · Oct 6, 2014

It makes me wonder how many people or what percentage of people actually are abnormally good at something. I would guess that asking for a show of hands of people in this thread who feel talented or more than normally good at something would raise nearly every hand. I wonder if people who don't believe in talent actually have no experience of it so don't believe in it. Being talented or abnormally good at something is completely comparative. Someone is always the best in the room.

analoguey · Oct 6, 2014

I think the discussion is about talent - the argument(I think) is whether it's inborn or can be developed.

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Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 6, 2014

I think with a little effort, one can learn how to draw. I took a drawing class in college and I'm still terrible at it. I went to a David Hockney show and saw his wonderful Ipad drawings. I downloaded a drawing app for my ipad and got a stylus so I can get drawing. I was terrible at it. But with daily practice, I can get better. David Hockney has the gift, I don't.

frank · Oct 6, 2014

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I think with a little effort, one can learn how to draw. I took a drawing class in college and I'm still terrible at it. I went to a David Hockney show and saw his wonderful Ipad drawings. I downloaded a drawing app for my ipad and got a stylus so I can get drawing. I was terrible at it. But with daily practice, I can get better. David Hockney has the gift, I don't.

Yes, with practice one can get better, and yes some people are naturally more talented/capable at certain things than others.

Thank you to poster bringing up the necessity of diversity in a population in order for natural selection and evolution to take place. As human beings, we are all equal, but on a genetic level we are all different.

Truzi · Oct 6, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Once we sink to calling Bryan Adams a gifted singer the thread needs to be nuked.

ROTFLMAO. Good one.

Bill Burk · Oct 6, 2014

We'll never solve this without specific examples:

Man Ray::Born with it
Ralph Morse::Had to learn it

See if you can keep the list going...

removed account4 · Oct 6, 2014

sorry dennis to SNIP SNIP / EDIT you but i think you said something extremely important here ( to me at least )

dpurdy said:
I can't draw like a photograph but I have learned to draw like I draw.. with my own style.
Dennis

it has to do with doing something like you do it, and it being your own style.
i think that is important because people who are experts, have an artistic sense, a raw talent
do what they do, whether it is perfection or something else and that thing became their style ...
and they kept at it,and their style became more and more refined ...
a lot of people are afraid to let go and allow imperfection or something stylized out when in the end
it is that lack of perfection / improvisation that makes something art, and not mechanical.

i am not sure if it is nature or nurture, but in the end if you don't nurture something it will die
and if you just let raw talent sit and don't develop it it is just raw and undeveloped and un-nurtured ...

thanks for that quote !
john

markbarendt · Oct 6, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
"Were we not all different, we would not be at all. Natural selection only works when there is a preferred selection between unequal choices."

It is a selection in those who reproduce better, right?

Bill Burk · Oct 6, 2014

By the time we do that, it's too late for us.

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 6, 2014

markbarendt said:
It is a selection in those who reproduce better, right?

For those characteristics that impact the ability to survive long enough to reach the point of reproducing, yes. But the larger point is that all human characteristics are similarly subject to a range of random strength and weakness. Survivability is not unique in that respect.

If the runt puppy can't get enough nourishment attention from mom because he's too weak to compete for it, then he will never survive to reproduce and pass along that weak trait to his or her never-to-be offspring.

But if a person is similarly born weak in the ability to master guitar playing, that won't kill him or her. And provided they do reproduce, that non-ability will indeed be passed on to future generations, thus creating a world where the less naturally talented guitar players will peacefully (most of the time) coexist with the virtuosos, even if only in the shower.

That's part of the reason that Alan's (there was a url link here which no longer exists) was more on-topic than some may have realized when he said, "I believe [special ability] is innate and cannot be taught. The rest of us need the shower stall to improve our ability."

However, my more immediate desire is simply to hear in greater detail Clive's own point of view regarding his original thread question.

Ken

Bill Burk · Oct 6, 2014

To cliveh's original post. My saying has always been that my sister got the crayons and I got the box. She went on to Art Center College of Design and became an animator. I never bothered to learn to draw, though I believe I could have done it if I wanted to.

lxdude · Oct 6, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
But if a person is similarly born weak in the ability to master guitar playing, that won't kill him or her. And provided they do reproduce, that non-ability will indeed be passed on to future generations, thus creating a world where the less naturally talented guitar players will peacefully (most of the time) coexist with the virtuosos, even if only in the shower.

Yeah, but everybody knows awesome guitar players get more chicks!

MattKing · Oct 7, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Once we sink to calling Bryan Adams a gifted singer the thread needs to be nuked.

Actually, "gifted performer" might work.

And savvy song writer too.

Would you say Tom Waits is a gifted singer? Leonard Cohen?

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 7, 2014

lxdude said:
Yeah, but everybody knows awesome guitar players get more chicks!

Well, I couldn't play the guitar if my life depended on it, so that explains a lot. A WHOLE lot...

Ken

lxdude · Oct 7, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Well, I couldn't play the guitar if my life depended on it, so that explains a lot. A WHOLE lot...

Ken

Yeah, the only thing I play is the radio.

Truzi · Oct 7, 2014

lxdude said:
Yeah, the only thing I play is the radio.

That's funny because I used that exact quote when I first decided to learn the guitar.

markbarendt · Oct 7, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
But the larger point is that all human characteristics are similarly subject to a range of random strength and weakness.

It is not that I'm so smart. But I stay with the questions much longer. ― Albert Einstein

Ken Nadvornick said:
That's part of the reason that Alan's (there was a url link here which no longer exists) was more on-topic than some may have realized when he said, "I believe [special ability] is innate and cannot be taught. The rest of us need the shower stall to improve our ability."

While there are differences, most humans are remarkably average in biological, physical, and mental capacities.

I truly believe that environment and opportunity are the big wildcards for all but a few outliers (statistically speaking).

Like Einstein, I think Adams followed a path that most of us could have followed had we been there then, by simply staying with the questions involved long enough.

removed account4 · Oct 7, 2014

MattKing said:
Would you say Tom Waits is a gifted singer?

yes, without a doubt, a gifted storyteller, poet, musician, composer, and singer
and he is not shy to belt one out using a megaphone or push he abilities to be even better.
like all gifted people he is not resting on his laurels but makinghimself better than he was the last time.

maybe the gift is perseverance and being relentless and never giving up or giving in to people telling you to stop when they've had enough ?

analoguey · Oct 7, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Most humans are indeed remarkably average. Einstein was not.

Not according to his school teacher. He was below average, per them. IIRC.

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RalphLambrecht · Oct 7, 2014

cliveh said:
I have heard people quote 'I wish I could draw but I can't and that's why I do photography'. In my opinion the ability to draw, or paint, or sculpt is not a God given gift at birth, but one that can be acquired with practice, like many other techniques, such as bricklaying, plastering, photography, etc. What do other think?

It's the rule of 10,000 hours:you can do anything well after practicing it extensively for 10,000 hours anything!

Alan Klein · Oct 7, 2014

Creativity isn't limited to artists. There are creative entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs; creative scientists like Einstein; creative invertors like Bell; creative Generals like Napoleon; creative politicians who changed how states can govern themselves like Madison and Jefferson. The list goes on.

Equally and maybe more importantly we all are creative in our own way. If you go into work today, and the boss hands you another client to take care of, you have to be creative in figuring out how to adjust your schedule to accommodate. If you're preparing a meal for a group of people, you have to figure out how to select complementary items. All this stuff takes creativity. We are all born with this ability to a certain degree. And some of us are better in some areas than other. For the musician who can compose an opera, but wouldn't;t know how to prepare a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch. We all have areas where we are better at creativity. The Master of the Universe doesn't make junk.

Truzi · Oct 7, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Einstein had gifts which could not be evaluated by average people using average measurement systems.

Am I to understand some of you seriously believe something like general relativity was simply the result of giving a problem more thought?

The field of psychology (and astrophysics) may disagree. If we were unable to measure or evaluate there would be no question; either we would not see that he had "gifts," or they would seem supernatural - never falling into the concept of "genius" or "talent."

The fact that the average human can understand his theories shows more how he "thought outside the box" than having terribly extraordinary powers. The mere fact we can understand what he taught shows it is well within the grasp of the average intellect.

It is not argued that he was a genius (well, actually, it is, but then we'd be getting into cognitive neuroscience). One criticism of Einstein can be found by searching for the argument his "genius" was mostly mathematical (not saying I agree or not, just that it is interesting to read).

Also, he did not theorize in a vacuum. Einstein, like most, also built on work of others. Most "breakthroughs" in science over the millennia are similar. Something we don't give a second thought to presently did seem earth-shattering at some point, even more so to those who did not understand the work involved.

analoguey · Oct 7, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Einstein had gifts which could not be evaluated by average people using average measurement systems.

Am I to understand some of you seriously believe something like general relativity was simply the result of giving a problem more thought?

No, your argument was that Einstein was always deemed extraordinary - that wasnt so - IIRC, he was a patent clerk as well.

Didnt Newton say he stood on the shoulder of giants?

I think you're being quite facile to say Einstein's work isnt a lifetime of work in a field but just 'brilliance'.

There were quite a few other giants around the same time as well - IQ measured or not.

It's quite a fatalistic way of looking at things saying 'these are destined for greatness, these arent' - when, (afaik) clearly even Einstein wasn't deemed to be of much significance until his relativity theory (or that other work he won a nobel for)

Note that you're also saying retrospectively that Einstein is 'brilliant'.

Did he have anyone telling him that in the his early years?
So what made him pursue it? Talent? Or dogged interest? Perseverance?

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cliveh · Oct 7, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
However, my more immediate desire is simply to hear in greater detail Clive's own point of view regarding his original thread question.Ken

I think what Michael refers to as reaching the top tier skills can be achieved with enough practice. If that individual practice also develops a personal style through imaginative application of those skills, which can be appreciated by others, then some may think the practitioner has an innate ability, which some may refer to as gifted. I would also add that motivation and interest play a big part in this, because if you are not motivated or interested in learning to draw (or whatever), you wont bother to put in enough practice.

BrianShaw · Oct 7, 2014

Alan Klein said:
The Master of the Universe doesn't make junk.

You must not get out much. In the 30 minutes it took to drive to work I encountered at least 6 worthless pieces of "junk" created by the Master. Try driving the LA freeways and you'll experience what I mean. (And this eperience has nothing to do with the VP's visit to LA today.)

God given gift or just practice?

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