though I don''t have any precision measuring tools to say for sure.
Rare and obscure photographic developers sometimes generate some interest by their very virtue of being special, but in the end we need to face the fact, that compounds like Glycin, Pyrogallol and p-Aminophenol remained obscure for a reason (Rodinal's faithful disciples notwithstanding).
If you say "good reduction in grain levels but a definite increase in apparent sharpness", then what is your reference developer you compare this against?
If you look at the development process, there is the initiation of development, when tiny developable silver specks start building up, and there is the rapid development phase, in which silver builds up quickly. Phase 1 is governed by the reduction potential of the developer, and by the degree to which the developer adsorbs to the silver halide grain. Phase 2 depends on these same factors, and in addition on how quickly fresh developer is brought to the grain and how quickly oxidized developer is either restored or removed from the grain.
If phase 2 is much faster than phase 1, then you quickly build up contrast, while smaller developable silver specks remain mostly undeveloped, and you see this as "speed loss".
PS: People have seen better sharpness with Metol than with Phenidone. Since you want to make an acutance developer, you could try to add small amounts of Metol to your developer. In both cases you'd have to reduce pH by quite a bit.
PPS: Since you now have brought Ascorbic Acid into your developer, make sure you have read and understood most of the stuff Ryuji Suzuki has written about this topic. Study his DS-12 developer formula and try to go from there.
At the risk of machine-gunning various sacred cattle, I strongly suspect that the two metol relatives ceased being of significant research interest to Kodak etc because Metol did the same job more efficiently (than p-aminophenol) and that glycin may have been found to be no more effective than slightly adjusting the amount of metol used (which may have depended on more accurate measuring techniques becoming available, or other analytical techniques). Kodak used pyrogallol for specific properties (tanning) in specialist developers into the 1990's, but I wonder if their avoidance of actual staining developers related to concerns over the longevity/ stability of what is effectively a dye image.
Glycin is somewhat related to Metol and p-Aminophenol, but these three are very different animals as photographic developers. Especially Glycin with its very electronegative acetic acid group acts more like dihydroxybenzenes than like aminophenols. As soon, as it was technically and economically feasible, Kodak switched from all these three agents to Phenidone/Dimezone-S. They could have used Glycin together with Dimezone-S, but apparently saw no benefit in that. Their latest and most advanced black&white developer is the E6 first developer, which uses Dimezone-S and HQMS-K, not Glycin, Ascorbic Acid or any other forum favorites here.
While Pyrogallol seems to have a dedicated group of users, the late Ron Mowrey was very afraid of its toxicity, he called it one of the most toxic compounds found in dark rooms. I suspect, that Kodak disliked Pyrogallol for this very reason.
The sharpness of your developer has nothing to do with "grain clumping". You get strong edge effects, which give you the impression of high sharpness but also of high granularity. With a few grams of sulfite in your developer there is virtually no solvent action to be afraid of. BTW some solvent action is actually beneficial, because there are developable latent image specks underneath the silver halide grain surface. Sulfite may not be the best solvent to reveal them.I used the wrong term actually, I'm looking more for "high sharpness and high definition", not just sharpness. Honestly fine grain and sharpness are not always at ends, just often. Specifically I believe the coarse grain I see in my sulfite-free EXG1 developer is primarily silver clumping rather than just the lack of solvent action
I have done experiments with a print developer based on Ascorbic Acid alone. Trust me: Ascorbic Acid by itself is almost inactive even at high pH, I barely got a faint image after 20 minutes. In your specific developer there will be some development by Glycin, and after some time the Ascorbate will either restore oxidized Glycin or do some development on larger silver specks. When Ascorbate gets oxidized, it forms quite acidic products, which hinder development, that's the likely reason why you saw edge effects. If you have a decent carbonate buffer, the effect of these acidic end products is less pronounced. AFAIK there is no way to restore oxidized Ascorbate in a photographic developer.Taking this theory of development, I believe what is happening is that ascorbic acid is primarily responsible for phase 1 in this developer, especially for highlights, while glycin is responsible for phase 2.
There is a developer based on Metol and Glycin: Crawley's FX 2. This tells me, that this combo may indeed have some merit. Note, that this developer uses just 3.5 g/l Sodium Sulfite, which is far away from any solvent action.Also yes, metol definitely looks easier to work with than phenidone for this purpose if I'm going to add a third developing agent, but phenidone is super-additive with both glycin and ascorbic acid, while metol is only super additive with ascorbic acid
A stained negative though, I will say, produces a different type of image than pretty much any other developer.
The sharpness of your developer has nothing to do with "grain clumping". You get strong edge effects, which give you the impression of high sharpness but also of high granularity. With a few grams of sulfite in your developer there is virtually no solvent action to be afraid of. BTW some solvent action is actually beneficial, because there are developable latent image specks underneath the silver halide grain surface. Sulfite may not be the best solvent to reveal them.
I have done experiments with a print developer based on Ascorbic Acid alone. Trust me: Ascorbic Acid by itself is almost inactive even at high pH, I barely got a faint image after 20 minutes. In your specific developer there will be some development by Glycin, and after some time the Ascorbate will either restore oxidized Glycin or do some development on larger silver specks. When Ascorbate gets oxidized, it forms quite acidic products, which hinder development, that's the likely reason why you saw edge effects. If you have a decent carbonate buffer, the effect of these acidic end products is less pronounced. AFAIK there is no way to restore oxidized Ascorbate in a photographic developer.
The ascorbate will also decay through aerial oxidation within a few dozen minutes. Reduced amount of Ascorbate plus lowered pH from its oxidation products will likely reduce developer activity to the point, where highlights remain intact.
There is a developer based on Metol and Glycin: Crawley's FX 2. This tells me, that this combo may indeed have some merit. Note, that this developer uses just 3.5 g/l Sodium Sulfite, which is far away from any solvent action.
This is a very nice discussion ,,The sharpness of your developer has nothing to do with "grain clumping". You get strong edge effects, which give you the impression of high sharpness but also of high granularity. With a few grams of sulfite in your developer there is virtually no solvent action to be afraid of. BTW some solvent action is actually beneficial, because there are developable latent image specks underneath the silver halide grain surface. Sulfite may not be the best solvent to reveal them.
I have done experiments with a print developer based on Ascorbic Acid alone. Trust me: Ascorbic Acid by itself is almost inactive even at high pH, I barely got a faint image after 20 minutes. In your specific developer there will be some development by Glycin, and after some time the Ascorbate will either restore oxidized Glycin or do some development on larger silver specks. When Ascorbate gets oxidized, it forms quite acidic products, which hinder development, that's the likely reason why you saw edge effects. If you have a decent carbonate buffer, the effect of these acidic end products is less pronounced. AFAIK there is no way to restore oxidized Ascorbate in a photographic developer.
The ascorbate will also decay through aerial oxidation within a few dozen minutes. Reduced amount of Ascorbate plus lowered pH from its oxidation products will likely reduce developer activity to the point, where highlights remain intact.
There is a developer based on Metol and Glycin: Crawley's FX 2. This tells me, that this combo may indeed have some merit. Note, that this developer uses just 3.5 g/l Sodium Sulfite, which is far away from any solvent action.
TEA is a silver solvent, which easily dissolves Silver Chloride in water. This prebath breaks up some grains and reveals inner latent image centers, and it probably does this to a different degree depending on grain size and composition.
I used the wrong term actually, I'm looking more for "high sharpness and high definition", not just sharpness. Honestly fine grain and sharpness are not always at ends, just often. Specifically I believe the coarse grain I see in my sulfite-free EXG1 developer is primarily silver clumping rather than just the lack of solvent action.
Taking this theory of development, I believe what is happening is that ascorbic acid is primarily responsible for phase 1 in this developer, especially for highlights, while glycin is responsible for phase 2. The ascorbic acid oxidation products aren't really restored, but rather I believe get removed from the equation by the carbonate in solution. As far as I've researched, the only potential chemical that is capable of restoring ascorbic acid is an oxalate and that seems to only really be proven at an acidic or near neutral pH. I've messed with that combo a lot, but it gets confusing really quick without professional lab equipment and techniques for actually measuring if that property applies at alkaline pH. Regardless, it's not something in this formula. My theory is that the ascorbic acid products are sticking around too long, and preventing the glycin from developing the extreme highlights (ie, why the massively over exposed leader is less developed) and also preventing it from turning the just barely exposed grains into silver, hence the speed loss. It doesn't explain why FP4+ is so much different from Ortho 80 though. I'm beginning to suspect a camera shutter issue actually upon reviewing a few previous rolls of film. Reported exposure values by the camera's meter actually looks to be about 1/4 stop over exposed, but judging from my most recent slide film shot in the camera, it looks rather like its a 1/2 stop under exposed. Regardless, for my next batch I shot the FP4+ test strips in a different camera and am including a more diverse mix of film(FP4+, HP5+, Foma 100, T-Max 400)... Just stuck on what to tweak about the developer before processing.
I've studied Ryuji's developers and comments here extensively and actually just recently bought the final ingredient for making one of his especially interesting print developers using ascorbic + dimezone-s (could only find phenidone for a while, but Photographer's Formulary is finally back in stock). DS-12 is an interesting formula due to the mismatched amounts of ascorbic acid + metol, and the incredibly small amount of carbonate used in the working solution, and despite that still having a fairly fast development time. The TEA and salycylic acid I understand to primarily be there only for preserving the stock solution and chelating iron/copper and preventing the famous ascorbic acid "sudden death". I have both, but since I'm formulating this as an A+B solution with A containing no water (only TEA and polypropylene glycol), I think the salycylic acid isn't an important ingredient here. The TEA I'm primarily using for stock making purposes, but also for additional pH buffering and as a weak silver solvent which seems to behave quite differently from sulfite. TEA is also capable of weakly chelating some radicals (hydroquinone radicals specifically, unsure about ascorbic acid radicals) and neutralizing peroxides.
Also yes, metol definitely looks easier to work with than phenidone for this purpose if I'm going to add a third developing agent, but phenidone is super-additive with both glycin and ascorbic acid, while metol is only super additive with ascorbic acid.
My biggest reason for not using the much cheaper and more popular metol is due to the hard requirement to maintain a much higher amount of sulfite in solution. Metol in this extremely low sulfite developer would behave similar to ascorbic acid, with the oxidation products slowing down development in heavily exposed areas. My EXG1 developer uses no sulfite at all, just TEA, carbonate, and glycin, and is capable of (at least what appears to be) full speed results, rodinal like grain, and reasonable devleopment times (almost always matching D-76 1+1)
Just to give what my thinking is with combining all of these ingredients:
* glycin -- only stable and easily usable developing agent in an extremely low sulfite formula. Also is somewhat solvent on its own. It is restored by sulfite and the oxidation products appear to simply be removed by alkali
* ascorbic acid -- Several things. Ascorbic acid is known in other formulas to potentially give a speed increase (especially with phenidone). It is not restored by sulfite and oxidation products are removed by alkali, but also neutralize the alkali. This dynamic pH juggling from this I believe can give an increase in edge effects, with contrast balanced by the glycin. The thought here is that higher density areas will have more of these very acidic oxidation products that prevent the glycin from developing near by, ie, edge effects.
* low carbonate -- too much carbonate will neutralize the ascorbic acid oxidation products too quickly to produce much edge effects
* very low sulfite -- minimal solvent effect and prevents the glycin from being restored too quickly
* bromide -- a near homeopathic amount is used. Unsure it has any effect, used it just because of some references in Film Developing Cookbook saying it can potentially increase sharpness to have a very small amount
* iodide -- Same Film Developing Cookbook recommendation. Shouldn't have much effect on cubic grain emulsions, but should increase sharpness and prevent clumping on traditional grain emulsions
* glycol -- should be effectively neutral in the developer, used to make the part A less viscous and so that the ascorbic acid dissolves more easily
* TEA -- Glycin and ascorbic acid solvent for part A. Also prevents pH from going too low, while not pushing the overall developer pH to the point that glycin and ascorbic acid really do much without the small amount of carbonate. (glycin will form a low contrast image at the TEA pH of ~9.5, but with a 1 stop loss of speed and very slow development)
Overall goal of this developer are these properties:
* "Forever" shelf life by using an A+B formulation (and a good way to use up excess glycin)
* Coarse grain and high sharpness, but without a perceived grain increase due to grain clumping (ie, I don't want the dissolved silver to be replated anywhere)
* High definition / minor edge effects, not intending to reach staining developer levels of edge effects, but something with an edge over something like Rodinal or my own EXG1
* Full speed and good results on modern high speed films, bonus points for being a decent developer for pushing
* Weakly compensating with good separation between highlights and midtones
If I can accomplish all of these goals it'd be awesome. The formula I tried is already pretty good at everything excluding speed (or maybe it is good, but not with faster modern films depending on what you consider FP4+ as), and I think edge effects could be further built up by reducing agitation.
Current modifications I'm considering are adding a very small amount of catochen to make it a true staining developer, without hopefully introducing all of the difficulties that come with a staining developer. (I can't find any info at all about catochen and glycin interaction, but with metol it is sub-additive). Remove the bromide, it may have a very minor speed effect. Increase the ascorbic acid and slightly increase carbonate to maybe increase edge effects and maybe get that ascorbic acid speed increase. Increase sulfite slightly to increase overall development rate by the glycin. Decrease TEA to increase edge effects due to less buffer and maybe increase sharpness due to less silver solvent, also decrease the expense of the developer. Increase carbonate to make development overall more rapid (12m for box speed ortho 80 is pretty slow)... Unsure exactly which direction to go, probably just going to make something up and see what happens
You mixture of TEA, iodide and bromide did not increase absolute film speed, it just gave you better film speed than some of your solvent free developers alone would have given you. TEA is a silver solvent, which easily dissolves Silver Chloride in water. This prebath breaks up some grains and reveals inner latent image centers, and it probably does this to a different degree depending on grain size and composition.
Crawley's FX 2 formula is discussed in the Film Development Cookbook.
I keep reading this theory about cleared highlights, but so far see no base for this in reality. An additional solvent added to a developer does several things:
The effect most likely leading to "cleared highlights" would be the increased contrast, and I don't think, that a prebath can be of much help here. Anything affecting fog or sensitivity mostly affects the darker regions of the slides, not the highlights.
- It generally increases developer activity. The developer builds up contrast faster.
- This increased activity can also in some cases lead to fog.
- It reveals internal latent image centers, which in some cases can mean slightly higher film sensitivity.
- It shifts the balance from chemical to physical development, which means thicker filaments. More silver has to be developed to build up density, this is seen as lower granularity. Since this effect is more pronounced around smaller latent image centers, some speed loss can go with it.
Would this prebath be helpful in clearing the highlights in reversal processing though it seems to have not been discussed in that context anywhere? Especially for films that don't do well in first developers containing thiocyanate/thiosulphate.
Cleared highlights... I read that the other day when I was trying out some Benzotriazole.
I could be wrong but if you are talking about negatives, then it’s to reduce fog. If you’re talking about prints ... reducing fog is the same as keeping highlights clear.
So I think that’s what the literature means by keeping highlights clear.... positives
Glycin is somewhat related to Metol and p-Aminophenol, but these three are very different animals as photographic developers. Especially Glycin with its very electronegative acetic acid group acts more like dihydroxybenzenes than like aminophenols. As soon, as it was technically and economically feasible, Kodak switched from all these three agents to Phenidone/Dimezone-S. They could have used Glycin together with Dimezone-S, but apparently saw no benefit in that. Their latest and most advanced black&white developer is the E6 first developer, which uses Dimezone-S and HQMS-K, not Glycin, Ascorbic Acid or any other forum favorites here.
While Pyrogallol seems to have a dedicated group of users, the late Ron Mowrey was very afraid of its toxicity, he called it one of the most toxic compounds found in dark rooms. I suspect, that Kodak disliked Pyrogallol for this very reason.
Ah, that would explain the correlation I was finding of a drop-off in patents disclosing Glycin in formulae from about the time of the commercial introduction of Phenidone onwards. I was almost certain it had to do with Phenidone/ Dimezone S arriving on the scene, but I couldn't work out the 'why'. Mention of HQMS-K (and BW reversal) brings up this rather interesting patent which suggests that by the mid-90s Agfa and (on the basis of the TMax reversal kit MSDS) Kodak seem to have stepped away from KSCN or similar solvents in the FD in favour of specified molecular weight PEG and HQMS (or some sort of in situ synthesis in the 'commercial' MQ version - I think). I recall that Spur and Moersch are rather keen on HQMS too, though at least one Moersch formula appears to use HQMS-K and Glycin...
Mention of FX-2 has reminded me that some recent digging around in some papers about DQE (Detective Quantum Efficiency) and similar work on film information capacity from the late 70's brought up a number of citations to the effect that D-76 at 1+4 was apparently 'well known to be able to produce adjacency effects' - at least seemingly in the academic and research communities in a city in upstate NY on the shores of Lake Ontario. What this has now making me wonder is whether taking Haist's D-76 variant and modifying its stock solution to either the 20g/l Borax or 2g/l Metaborate of D-76K or DK-76 (respectively) might have useful effects when run at 1+4 - especially as in the contemporaneous late 30's literature that accompanied these variants, they were supposed to half or quarter (respectively) the development time of regular D-76 stock solution. On the other hand, DQE and similar work likely showed that the granularity/ speed/ sharpness relationship was more usefully exploitable/ expandable at the emulsion design stage than in any developer concoction.
Anyway, currently I'm looking for a tanning developer that doesn't need pyrogallol as a major ingrediant, oxalic acid as an oxidising agent (to get the tanning effect to work) or alternatively requires me to use dichromates for subsequent cross-linking effects to harden gelatin prior to hot water wash-off...
@earlz - in Europe, Suvatlar sells HQMS - elsewhere, I'm not so sure.
It's #95 on Suvatlar's list - maybe worth contacting him & seeing if he knows a source stateside?
As for Oxalic acid, it requires licencing to buy or use over here because of what various idiots have seemingly used it for in order to harm people.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?