Glycin Developers for Film

[David A. Goldfarb]

David A. Goldfarb submitted a new resource:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) - Glycin Developers for Film

I have not tried these, but since people are experimenting with Ansco 130 as a film developer, they seem to be of potential interest. These come from The Morgan & Morgan Darkroom Book, ed. Algis Balsys and Liliane DeCock-Morgan (Dobbs Ferry, NY: Morgan & Morgan, 1980), pp. 152-55. The book has some obvious typos, like a recipe for Agfa #12 that leaves out the developing agent, so if anyone can confirm these from other sources, that would be helpful.

Agfa #8--Normal Contrast...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Just glancing at Anchell's The Darkroom Cookbook Crawley's FX-2 and Ilford ID 60 are two more.

 

[Photo Engineer]

David;

I'm very interested in this. I have reports of many people adding glycin to common developer formulas for paper and film. Grant Haist is quoted as saying that "you don't need 3 developing agents" or something akin to that. I was wondering why.......?

PE

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

GD-202 seems to violate all the rules. You've got metol, glycin, and hydroquinone together (three developing agents), both citric acid and sodium carbonate neutralizing each other, and then KBr. I forget who said that a film developer shouldn't need a restrainer, and if it does, then it is better to reduce the developing agent (maybe that was Crawley).

Again, I haven't tried these. I've just posted them, because they seem interesting and relevant to some experiments that people are doing with Ansco 130 for film.

 

[Louis Nargi]

I thought started out as a film developer.

 

[Larry Bullis]

dfcardwell started a thread on Edwal 12 a short time back: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I've been using it with Eastman XX 5222. It uses PPD, Glycin, and metol. Edmund Lowe, in his notes advises that the developer was intended for flat midwestern light, which means it's pretty good up here in the Pacific NW, since we have lots of overcast. The glycin is variable between 2.5 and 20 g, depending on the particular highlight characteristics desired. I'll be doing more work with this, and probably some comparisons with more conventional developers and using more easily available films that occur in a wider variety of formats.

I'd certainly be interested in what others find using other formulae; I'm particularly interested in the designation "soft working developer" for Agfa 72. "Soft working" has not been in my experience at all. Perhaps there is an additive effect among the three developing agents in E12, but the overwhelming fact of this stuff is that it loves to build contrast. Glycin seems to be the agent that has the greatest effect on the highlights. Today, for example, I shot some in bright early morning sun reflected on a metal building; I am NOT going to process it in E12, because I know it will kick those whites right off the scale and I'd have a very hard time holding them at all.

 

[Trask]

Thanks for the formulas, David. I have a few more culled from some photo lab books in French I picked up in Brussels, but they call for exotic components like Diethylparaphenylenediamine sulfite (or sulphate, it’s not clear) and hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol.

Here’s one that’s stated to be a compensating developer:

Sodium Sulphite 40 grams
Potassium Carbonate 40 grams
Glycin 8 grams
Phenidone 0.5 gram
Potassium Bromide 2 grams
Water 1000 ml

Dilute 1:1, average time of development at 20 degrees Centigrade: 8-12 minutes.

Another, somewhat similar, formula is said to be fine grain and come from Ilford:

Sodium Sulphite 90 grams
Sodium Carbonate 2 grams
Borax 2 grams
Glycin 5 grams
Phenidone 0.2 gram
Water 1000 ml

Used straight, average time of development 8 minutes.

An alternate formulation also said to be from Ilford, in a different book, as follows:

Hot water 700 ml
Borax 2 grams

Then, with water at 50 degrees Centigrade, add in order:

Sodium sulphite 70 grams
Sodium carbonate 2 grams
Glycin 5 grams
Phenidone 0.2 gram
Water to bring level to 1000 ml

For a gamma of 0.65, develop 11 minutes at 17-18 deg Cent, or 9 minutes at 18-19 degrees. (NB: no explanation as to why they’re staying below 20 deg Cent) Further, can be diluted 1:1 and used at 20 deg Cent for 8-9 minutes for slow-speed films.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

David, I've posted on this subject several times before but can no longer find the posts on APUG.

I'm not EXPERIMENTING with Ansco 130 as a film developer - I'm using it routinely as a Semi-Stand film developer (with excellent results).

The Ansco 130 formula I'm using (Published in 1938 by Ansco) - I posted this on APUG years ago - can't find it on APUG.

Ansco (Ansco/American Agfa) 130 Paper Developer

Water (125 F or 52C)-----------------------------750 ml
Metol*-------------------------------------------2.2 grams
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous)------------------------50 grams
Hydroquinone-------------------------------------11 grams
Sodium Carbonate (monohydrated)-----------------78 grams
Potassium Bromide---------------------------------5.5 grams
Glycin---------------------------------------------11 grams
Water to make-------------------------------------1.0 liter

With Kodak TMAX 100, I dilute Ansco 130 stock 1:20 with water and develop semi-stand for 26 minutes at 22C. This should be a good starting point for Kodak TMY-400 as well.

With Efke 25, I dilute Ansco 130 stock 1:20 with water and develop semi-stand for 18 minutes at 22C.

 

[Trask]

Tom: any photos you can post so we can see how this is working out for you? Sounds interesting.

 

[dpurdy]

If you look at Ansco 130 next to Dektol you see it is pretty close to just adding Glycin and Potassium Bromide to convert Dektol into Ansco 130 (and then don't dilute as Dektol)

Ansco (Ansco/American Agfa) 130 Paper Developer

Water (125 F or 52C)-----------------------------750 ml
Metol*-------------------------------------------2.2 grams
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous)------------------------50 grams
Hydroquinone-------------------------------------11 grams
Sodium Carbonate (monohydrated)-----------------78 grams
Potassium Bromide---------------------------------5.5 grams
Glycin---------------------------------------------11 grams
Water to make-------------------------------------1.0 liter


Kodak's D72 Formula DEKTOL
750 ml Water
3 g Metol-Elon
45 g Sodium Sulfite Anhydrous
12 g Hydroquinone
80 g Sodium Carbonate 1-Hydrate
2 g Potassium Bromide Anhydrous
Water to make 1 liter
Use diluted 1:2 at 68°F for 45 seconds to 3 minutes (or longer).

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just a note about bromide in developers.

As the level of bromide goes up, edge effects are repressed, and so with enough bromide you can reduce sharpness substantially. Reducing alkali, as long as pH can be maintained, will increase edge effects somewhat.

Like all "rules", these are generalizations that should be tested. People state that contrast is good, but give no proof that sharpness or grain are maintained and etc...

You know, there is a "theory of developer design" for engineers. Maybe someday I should teach it.

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

Yes.

I am sure that would the most popular thread around,
excluding the joke thread.

 

[Alan Johnson]

It was reported that glycin does not dissolve in propylene glycol (to make long lasting 2-part developers) but only in TEA. However I made this experiment: 2g glycin, 6ml TEA, 1tsp water,on heating gently and stirring this formed a clear solution which dissolved in 14 ml propylene glycol.The solution is only a few days old so it is not known if it is stable.
Heating these organic solutions cannot be made completely risk free IMO.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've merged two threads on Ansco 130 for film into this thread--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

There is another thread on Ansco 130 as a split developer, and the search engine will also turn up threads on Agfa 8 and Kodak D-78.

 

[Anscojohn]

FWIW, that Morgan and Morgan darkroom book, I have also found, has a considerable number of typos and other errors in its formulary. I packed it away years ago rather than rely on it.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Tom: any photos you can post so we can see how this is working out for you? Sounds interesting.

Yes, I'll dig out some photos developed semi-stand in diluted Ansco 130 and post them. I'll post some Agfa-8 examples as well.

 

[Trask]

Thanks -- I'm particularly interested in these two developers.

 

[CBG]

Hi Trask. Can you give names for those formulae, and can you pass on title and publisher etc for the books you found them in?

Thanks for the formulas, David. I have a few more culled from some photo lab books in French I picked up in Brussels, but they call for exotic components like Diethylparaphenylenediamine sulfite (or sulphate, it’s not clear) and hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol.

Here’s one that’s stated to be a compensating developer:

Sodium Sulphite 40 grams
Potassium Carbonate 40 grams
Glycin 8 grams
Phenidone 0.5 gram
Potassium Bromide 2 grams
Water 1000 ml

Dilute 1:1, average time of development at 20 degrees Centigrade: 8-12 minutes.

Another, somewhat similar, formula is said to be fine grain and come from Ilford:

Sodium Sulphite 90 grams
Sodium Carbonate 2 grams
Borax 2 grams
Glycin 5 grams
Phenidone 0.2 gram
Water 1000 ml

Used straight, average time of development 8 minutes.

An alternate formulation also said to be from Ilford, in a different book, as follows:

Hot water 700 ml
Borax 2 grams

Then, with water at 50 degrees Centigrade, add in order:

Sodium sulphite 70 grams
Sodium carbonate 2 grams
Glycin 5 grams
Phenidone 0.2 gram
Water to bring level to 1000 ml

For a gamma of 0.65, develop 11 minutes at 17-18 deg Cent, or 9 minutes at 18-19 degrees. (NB: no explanation as to why they’re staying below 20 deg Cent) Further, can be diluted 1:1 and used at 20 deg Cent for 8-9 minutes for slow-speed films.

 

[Trask]

They come from two books:

La Pratique du Developpement by A.H. Cuisinier, Publications Photo-Cinema Paul Montel, Paris, 1966 (thirteenth edition)

Developpement Negatifs - Noir et Blanc by Jacques Prioleaud, Publications Photo-Cinema Paul Montel, Paris, 1980 (sixth edition)

Until writing this response forced me to look, I hadn't realized these were published by the same publisher. I bought both, I think, at a quasi-used book store in Brussels a few years ago.

Developer #1 has no name, is just said to be "an excellent compensating developer"

Developer #2 and #3 have no names in particular, are just sourced to Ilford. FYI, it's stated the the pH of #3 is 9.3.

I like these older books, especially the one from 1966. It's got a formula in it that includes potassium metabisulphite, hydroquinone, phenidone, sodium sulphite, ammonium chloride, boric acid, potassium bromide, acetone and benzotriazole. I think I'd have to by stock in Photographer's Formulary before I bought all that stuff!

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I once studied chemistry - in high school... I have no clue what these different formulas do. I just use the chemicals.

Ansco 130 (from Photographer's Formulary) really is a good developer for film. I've done nearly twenty 5x7 sheets in it, and it gives me great negatives to print. I've used 1+4 and 1+8 so far. I like 1+8 best as highlights seem to print easier.

- Thomas

 

[dancqu]

TP-78

TP-78, a film developer formulated for Tech Pan
and similar high contrast slow speed films.

In this order; 1.5 grams, 3 grams, 3 grams -
sulfite, glycin, carbonate. A less sulfited, less
carbonated version of D-78.

From www.wynnwhitephoto.com Dan

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Thanks Dan.

And according to Wynn White, that's to make 1 liter. He develops Tech Pan at EI 25, 6 min agitating every thirty sec.; Bluefire Police at EI 25, 10 min. with less agitation (see the website for the schema).

 

[Ian Grant]

There are a lot of Formulae once posted on APUG stuck in a Black Hole somewhere . . . . . . Ideally they should be restored.

FWIW, that Morgan and Morgan darkroom book, I have also found, has a considerable number of typos and other errors in its formulary. I packed it away years ago rather than rely on it.

Unfortunately many US books of Formulae going back to the 40's/50's Lab Indexes are riddled with errors & typos, and every new book just kept compounding the errors. Steve Anchell's new Third Edition of the DCB has been cross checked were possible with the manufacturers own published data, but even those occasionally had the odd rare errors. So many errors which went unspotted in the 1st & 2nd editions and many other previous books are corrected in the 3rd Edition

Ian

 

[eclarke]

Germain Finegrain

Water 750 cc, 125 deg.
Metol 7 g.
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 70 g.
Paraphenylenediamine 7 g.
Glycin 7 g.
Water to make 1L

(Note, as usual, a pinch of Sulfite in the water before Metol.)

I use this full strength. My normal time in a Jobo for TMY is 6"30" @68 deg. F, water stop, fixed in Hypam 1+4, washed. This pulls highlights down quite nicely with minus development and is responsible for about 70% of all my film development...Evan Clarke

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I have a box of FX-2 film developer (contains glycin) that I'm wanting to try for stand development. In the mixing instructions for Stock Solution A, it's stated that:
"Add a pinch of the sodium sulfite".
However, there is no mention of when the rest of it goes into the solution. Does it go in last after the Metol, and the Glycin has been dissolved?

Also, when making the working solutions, for both versions with development with agitation and stand development, it suggests on the final line to add 500 ml Water, or 1,000 ml water to make a 0.5 liter or 1 liter solution. I'm just making sure, as I'm a believer in 'there are no stupid questions' thing - but hopefully that means to add water to bring the total volume to 500 and 1,000 ml respectively???

Where can I get syringes to measure up 1/10ml accuracy???



Recipe from Photographer's Formulary:

STOCK SOLUTION A
Chemical Amount
Distilled Water (32° C/90° F) 900 ml
Sodium sulfite, anhydrous 70 g
Metol 5 g
Glycin 15 g
Distilled Water (32° C/90° F) water to make 1000 ml

Place 900 ml of water in the brown storage container, or in a mixing container. Add a pinch of the sodium sulfite.
This small amount of sulfite minimizes the initial oxidation of the metol. If more sulfite is added at this time the
metol will not dissolve. Add the metol to the solution and stir until dissolved. Add each chemical in the order
given, being sure each one is completely dissolved before adding the next. Glycin sometimes goes into solution
rather slowly, so be sure it is mixed thoroughly before adding the rest of the water. Finally, add water to bring the
total volume in the container up to 1000 ml and stir to ensure the solution is mixed thoroughly.

STOCK SOLUTION B
Chemical Amount
Distilled Water (32° C/90° F) 800 ml
Potassium Carbonate, anhydrous 123 g
Distilled water to make 1000 ml

Add the water to the storage container followed by the carbonate. Cap and shake the container to dissolve the
solid. Add water to bring the final volume up to 1000 ml. Cap and invert the container several times to ensure the
final solution is mixed thoroughly.