"Glow" of toned prints

Hi all,

Ever since I did my first sepia toning, and subsequently explored selenium, blue, copper red and combination tonings, I have found that many of the toned prints seem to have a very nice "inner glow" to them that is lacking in normal untoned prints. I am especially font of partial sepia and combined sepia / selenium tonings.

I always find that, beside a transition and addition of colour, the prints seem to become more "alive". It's a bit hard to express, but the effect reminds me of what classical oilpainters refer to as "glazing" with transparent layers of oil paints. Glazing in oil painting, and the inner glow that it creates that is so much appreciated and sought after by both painters and art loving public, is an effect caused by several differently translucent / transparent layers of oil paint being applied on top of each other, with light being reflected by each of them back to the observer, and mixing into a new "glowing" colour.

Classical oil painters apply so called "dead" layers and multiple layers of transparent and sometimes complementary colours to build up the final image. Many of the most famous 17th, 18th and 19th century paintings have been made this way, with a renewed interest in these techniques in recent years.

I have been wondering if a similar effect takes place in (partially) and / or combined toned prints? Anyone else have ideas or opinions on this?

The true secret of oil paintings using 'glazing' and 'dead' layers are that they are invisible to the viewer when admiring the finished work.

Untoned prints can glow when printed well, but that doesn't mean the masters didn't use selenium or sepia toners to help a print along. The key is to use them in a way that supports the image, not distract.

Interesting thoughts, Marco and Walt.

My own opinion is that my fiber prints have maximum impact because the image appears to be in the paper i.e. the image has a relationship with the paper texture. I agree, Marco, that split toning can do truly magical things.

Not to digibash but... obviously, when people think of the quality of a print only in terms of lp/mm or dpi resolution and Dmax and Dmin, they miss that feeling of individual, fine artwork that traditional toned fiber prints can give. ....or is it because I am prouder of my own accomplishment whenever I do get a good fiber print?!! :rolleyes:

Marco, I wonder if it has something to do with the action of the bleach on the highlights as I too notice that split sepia and selenium toning can produce an amazing range of tones and hues with that subtle glow or airy feel in the highlights.

Marco, I have thought the same when viewing a properly toned print. I have always refered to it (in my own feble mind) as depth. "The print has depth". But it is more than that. It either has it or it does not. I believe, like Andrew, that range of tones and hues has a lot to do with it and "depth" does not do justice to the actual visual experience. Its an unanswered question to me and I hope more enlightened will jump in here (you know who you are) and give their insight.

Best, Jim

There's something I find more "complete" about a toned print, especially in selenium. The image feels thicker, more like ink on paper. Untoned prints look somewhat "dirty" to me, a bit rough like gravel. That's not true of all prints, but for RC it's especially true. FB already looks great out of the box, and taking the olive tone out of it just make it brilliant.

i normally used a selenium toner in archivel delution (1+19 to 1+30, depends) and for quite short time (1 to 2.5 minutes) with almost constant gentel agitation in the try ... although this doesnot change the colour balances of the paper (even the warmton papers like ilford mgw), it does add some additional and easily apparent sparkle but not a real change in tonality. im not sure i can use the word "glow" since this should be achived mainly in print and even more on film and lighting condition (for real dramatic glowing experience) ...
sometimes i love to use the sepia toner, my prefered one is the fotospeed package with 3 bottles (bleaching, activator, and tonal addetive), which gives a great control in toning... with sepia, i mainly love a partial bleach (up to half way - clearing the brighter to mid tones) and then toning with full strenght sepia (with almost full strenght addative that keeps the tones and color tight without getting to soft and too colorfull-yellow) ... i especially love using this method with lith too ...
of course things depend alot on paper character ...
true even the simple and very sensitive toning add something pleasant to the print ....

I think that in French, there is a word giving an even better description of what you call glow : 'présence'.
But do not ask me to translate it whit a true signification in the present context...

Likewise, I use a Selenium/Thiorea splitone and the picture seems to have a better 'speech'.

Good luck,

Philippe

I think it's maybe just the slight increase in contrast along with a brightening of the highlights which appeals to the eye.

Marco B said:

Hi all,

Ever since I did my first sepia toning, and subsequently explored selenium, blue, copper red and combination tonings, I have found that many of the toned prints seem to have a very nice "inner glow" to them that is lacking in normal untoned prints. I am especially font of partial sepia and combined sepia / selenium tonings.

I always find that, beside a transition and addition of colour, the prints seem to become more "alive". It's a bit hard to express, snip snip

Click to expand...

You are right Marco
I think this is due to a number of factors. Selenium deepens the depth of blacks - a little bit like the look of a wet print. This does a lot to add a sense of luminosity and 'inner gleam'. Many toners affect contrast too and this can lighten the top end or give a sense of light in the print by the mid tone effect. Howver, there is another aspect and that is the relationship of colours and as soon as you have more than one hue in a print this comes into effect. Some colours receed and some advance. Some are warm, some are cold. Some are dominant over others. This definitely affects the sense of depth in a print and can be consciously and deliberately employed.
Tim

Maybe we should have a split-toned print exchange....

Very interesting post. I'm getting into toning quite heavily and I'm starting to experiment. I too find that an already good print can be accentuated by tone to suit the subject matter better.

Now all I have to do is to get my darkroom ventilation working better and find a way where I don't stink up the whole house when I tone prints. How do folks here solve the noxious effluence that sulfide toners give off? I'm outdoors with a big fan blowing it away from me, but when winter comes I'll have to figure something out!
I hope I'm not hijacking an already interesting thread. If I am I will make it a separate question.

- Thomas

Thomas Bertilsson said:

How do folks here solve the noxious effluence that sulfide toners give off?

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I do it outside or in a hallway with lots of ventilation. And I save up my prints 'til I have a good dozen or two to tone, and do them all in one batch. And then I moan and groan for a few hours and hold my nose....

leicam5 said:

I think that in French, there is a word giving an even better description of what you call glow : 'présence'.
But do not ask me to translate it whit a true signification in the present context...

Click to expand...

The English word presence, obviously derrived from French and Latin, means the same thing. The term is also used to describe tone in music. Some guitar amplifiers have a presence control fitted.


Steve.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Now all I have to do is to get my darkroom ventilation working better and find a way where I don't stink up the whole house when I tone prints. How do folks here solve the noxious effluence that sulfide toners give off? I'm outdoors with a big fan blowing it away from me, but when winter comes I'll have to figure something out!
- Thomas

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What about trying thiorea toning?

Does it have to be sulfide-based? Isn't it possible to find a non-sulfide sepia tone that works with your aesthetic?

Thomas Bertilsson said:

.....How do folks here solve the noxious effluence that sulfide toners give off? I'm outdoors with a big fan blowing it away from me, but when winter comes I'll have to figure something out!....

- Thomas

Click to expand...

Thomas,
I work indoors. I use a downstairs half bathroom/laundry room to wash and tone prints. It has a standard type window that I open and place a small fan blowing out the window through a piece of mat board w/a cutout for the fan. I keep the door (opposite the window) slightly open to create the air flowing in the right direction. With the toning tray placed just below the window sill the smell is directed out the window and the daylight coming in is a benefit also, for judging the print tone. In winter the small fan doesn't suck much heat out of the house and during the summer months it's a rather cool place to work.

Regards,
Paul

I have a thiourea toner too that I haven't tried yet...

I was mainly implying that sulfide based toners are the nasty, rotten egg, smelling ones. None of them, including selenium, can be very healthy to breathe.

- Thomas

PVia said:

What about trying thiorea toning?

Does it have to be sulfide-based? Isn't it possible to find a non-sulfide sepia tone that works with your aesthetic?

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That's great, Paul! I actually have a little fan that is intended to go in the window. I never thought about mat board, I'll probably use masonite or plywood though, as it's a little heavy heavy (about 2-3 lbs, or 1-1.5 kg).

My wife thinks it stinks with the toners, and my pets go berzerk whenever I use sulfide based toners. And I get a headache (= not healthy).

- Thomas

panastasia said:

Thomas,
I work indoors. I use a downstairs half bathroom/laundry room to wash and tone prints. It has a standard type window that I open and place a small fan blowing out the window through a piece of mat board w/a cutout for the fan. I keep the door (opposite the window) slightly open to create the air flowing in the right direction. With the toning tray placed just below the window sill the smell is directed out the window and the daylight coming in is a benefit also, for judging the print tone. In winter the small fan doesn't suck much heat out of the house and during the summer months it's a rather cool place to work.

Regards,
Paul

Click to expand...

Anyway, I think I hijacked this thread enough. If you want to discuss darkroom ventilation, I think I'll open a new thread.

Sorry for the intrusion. It's the glow of the prints that's the important end result of toning.

- Thomas

My absolute favorite toners are...

...Selenium at about 1+20 (or so), and...

...The thiourea based Varigam toners (DuPont T-6 series) as published in the old Photo-Lab Index in the '70's.

The Varigam toners offer a wide range of colors from a lush, rich dark chocolate brown (my favorite) all the way to the insipid baby-poop mustard yellow most often seen when using the typical Kodak Sepia formuations.

Both toners offer a beautiful 'présence'.

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com

For a wide range of toner formulas and instructions go to jackspcs.com/toner.htm. There are a number of sepia or sulphide toners that can be produced without raising a big stink. A Toner made from thiorea and sodium carbonate can be so very inexpensive. No odor problem. A polysulphide toner can be made that is capable of a range of tones. Also covered at the site mentioned along with hypo alum.

When bleach and redevelopment toning is being done gold, selenium and sulphur can be quite similar in producing brown tones.

The paper receiving the toning and the devolpment of that paper can be expected to each vary from other brands and types.

Nelson's gold toning is not prohibitively expensive. Nelson's gold on top of a sulphided print can be rather surprising in producing oranges and reds.

There is no reason that on can not apply one toner ontop of another through the selective application of the second using a brush...say Nelson's gold ontop of thiorea.

To be able to get all of these effects and to simultaneously increase print life is, I think, rather wonderful.

Soon after I first got into darkroom again about 20 years ago I bought a few toners (blue/sepia) and turned all my prints fantastic colours from yellow to blue. I soon got bored with it as I found it a bit 'gimicky'. A couple of years ago I discovered selenium and realised what I'd been missing. About a year ago I was priveleged to look at some of Stoo Bachelor's prints - beautifully and subtly toned in thiocarbamide and selenium (I believe). I've also started experimenting with Gold toner. The key to toning is subtlety. I feel that if the colour is immediately obvious it gone too far (although of course there are exceptions). The other great discovery has been Dr Tim Rudman's toning book.
The best tip I learnt was to put an untoned print in a tray of water next to the toning bath for comparison.

Rob

Rob Archer said:

The key to toning is subtlety. I feel that if the colour is immediately obvious it gone too far (although of course there are exceptions). The other great discovery has been Dr Tim Rudman's toning book. Rob

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Hi Rob (and others),

I agree with you that subtlety can be a good thing with toning, however, it also depends on subject. Some subjects do very well in a fully toned sepia image. Personally, except for a few rare occasions, I am not very fond of fully selenium toned images.

Thomas:

About sepia toning: like others have said, a thiourea based toner can be virtually "smell-less". I have never an issue with my thiourea based sepia toner... I would even call it slightly pleasant, as the toner gives of a slight sweet smell

Selenium toner can have a very pugnant ammonia smell when fresh, but my selenium toner, after a years usage but still active, gives of very little smell. In my experience, it's just the first couple of toning sessions that the ammonia smell is an issue.

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:

The image feels thicker, more like ink on paper.

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Interesting analogy.