• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Glass Carrier Necessary for 4x5 Horizontal Enlarger?

Texas

A
Texas

  • 3
  • 1
  • 49

Forum statistics

Threads
203,431
Messages
2,854,514
Members
101,837
Latest member
Paulo Barros
Recent bookmarks
0

Old-N-Feeble

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
6,802
Location
South Texas
Format
Multi Format
I know a glass negative carrier is necessary for vertical enlargers due to film sag but...

Is a glass negative carrier necessary to enlarge 4x5 negs with a horizontal enlarger if using a Beseler negaflat? Or perhaps, if the film is flat enough, a standard carrier could be used. This is assuming I use a well-vented cool LED light source so there should be no negative warpage due to heat.
 
I beg to differ. I cut my teeth on 4x5 negs in the darkroom (beginning in the late 1950s) and using a glass carrier was unusual. True, I wasn't making monster sized prints.
 
I doubt it very much. There would be no sag since the negative isn't laying flat... but even projecting vertically without glass, there would be very little sag, if any with a 4x5 negative. No glass means less surfaces to keep clean as well. I definitly use glass when enlarging 8x10 negatives (vertically), though.
 
...film sag...

How much sag are you getting? With my vertical enlargers the focal spread of a 4x5 negative from center to edge in a glassless carrier is quite small and can be ignored. The ratio of film base thickness to size of a 4x5" negative is very favorable for it staying flat in a glassless carrier. One advantage of glass is that it maintains the negative in a motionless state. This may or may not be required depending on temperature stability in the head, the length of the exposure, number of exposures, etc.

Durst Horizontal enlargers require a glass carrier because a cooling fan blows cooling air with the force of a hair dryer on the negative carrier.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you want truly sharp prints, this is almost impossible to achieve "glassless". I know ... I know...I've heard all the arguments for years. But seems like everytime someone is bragging how sharp their prints are without glass, they look like mush to me. But this is of course all related to your personal opinions about sharpness, degree of enlargement, and of course, temperature issues on the negative plane itself, in relation to the actual duration of exposure. Yet the mere fact you're projecting horizontal makes me suspect you want to make big prints, which in turn makes me question whether or not an LED source will even have enough light output, especially given the fact you might be tempted to stop you enlarging lens way down when your prints don't come out ideally sharp. Not a subject worth starting another World
War over. It's just that I've been down this road long before and already know what to expect.
 
I want whatever grain there is (hopefully very tiny) to have a "visual feel" of rough sand... sharp sharp sharp on 30x40+ size prints.

I've yet to build a darkroom here and am just now getting back into analog monochrome after 30+ years. I recall 4x5 having a tiny bit of sag and warpage in my old Beseler 45MCRX using a glassless carrier but using a Negaflat solved that issue for me. However, I didn't enlarge beyond 16x20 at that time.

I'll not be stopping my lens down much due to diffraction limitations on large prints. In fact, if I can realize my dream of making ultra-long murals from 8x10 negs with a Rodagon-G or G-Componon these might be used wide open.
 
Therefore it might be worthwhile to start learning the protocol of precise glass carriers. There is just no way to do big prints right without glass. Every pro lab recognized this decades ago, as did every manufacturer of pro (industrial) enlargers. Beseler never made industrial enlargers in the sense of something intended for serious big enlargement work. Ideally, you want everything perfectly aligned, so that you focus only on the emulsion itself, at the ideal f-stop for the particular lens. It takes a lot of light and a properly diffused head. You will also
want a very smooth floor track system so that it is easy for you to personally manage movement of the entire machine. This requires a carefully leveled floor in advance. There are a lot of little things that have to be ironed out step by step. And you're only as good as your
film plane in the first place, so you'll need to make or acquire either adhesive film holder of a vac holder for the 8x10. It does make a huge
difference in big enlargements, despite the objections of traditionalists and contact printers.
 
Ian .. one person's "no problem" is another person's nightmare. He wants to make big precise prints. That's a game changer in required technique.
 
Ian .. one person's "no problem" is another person's nightmare. He wants to make big precise prints. That's a game changer in required technique.

It really depends on the equipment and the negative carrier. I've made prints (commercially) in the past over 72" x40" with a glassless carrier, the prints had to be sharp or the clients wouldn't pay, but then that was small in comparison to much of the applied work we did which was up to about 16ft wide.

The OP's question is theoretical he doesn't have a darkroom, I'd suggest having both glass and glassless negative carriers. I'd also be looking at a powerful light source to keep times to a minimum and allowing the lens to be used at an optimal aperture. My 5x4 horizontal enlarger had a condenser head with what was in effect a point light source.

Ian
 
^^^ For prints up to 112 inches wide the goal is 5 minutes or less exposure at f/5.6 this will be accomplished with a very bright LED panel with adjustable output. There will be a heat-absorbing glass between the light panel and the neg plus plenty of passive heat removal.
 
A glass carrier is necessary for a horizontal 4"x5" enlarger when a negative needs to be flattened to eliminate a warp, curl or bent. This is more noticeable when dealing with half [single] frame negatives and panorama negatives.
 
A glass carrier is necessary for a horizontal 4"x5" enlarger when a negative needs to be flattened to eliminate a warp, curl or bent. This is more noticeable when dealing with half [single] frame negatives and panorama negatives.

A Beseler Negaflat won't suffice?
 
I am not familiar with the Beseler Negaflat, but will it work with 35mm film and 16mm film?
 
I am not familiar with the Beseler Negaflat, but will it work with 35mm film and 16mm film?

No, it's strictly a 4x5 carrier. It grabs the sheet at many points along the two long edges and stretches/pulls it taught/flat.
 
Five minutes is a LONG time. You're into serious recip failure territory, with the dog endlessly chasing its own tail. A true mural colorhead
would punch it in mere seconds, maybe too fast. But I have a custom industrial coldlight for 8x10 that would probably do it within 30 sec.
LED is still an adolescent option - a great concept, but still tentative in terms of track record. Serious enlarger like the true industrial Durst
models were made to accept many different options in terms of light sources, as well as take a wide range of carrier. There were also various aftermarket options made by others for them, due to their standardization. Or some of us with a bit of shop experience make our own custom gear. In this respect, 8x10 is a better option than 4x5 not only because of the greater amount of detail it will hold, but because it doesn't require as much magnification. But you need to think Durst or Devere if you want something already on the map. And no, that
Rodagon G isn't usable at f/5.6 except for general center focus. It needs to be two stops further down for edge to edge optimization.
 
Five minutes is a LONG time. You're into serious recip failure territory, with the dog endlessly chasing its own tail. A true mural colorhead
would punch it in mere seconds, maybe too fast. But I have a custom industrial coldlight for 8x10 that would probably do it within 30 sec.
LED is still an adolescent option - a great concept, but still tentative in terms of track record. Serious enlarger like the true industrial Durst
models were made to accept many different options in terms of light sources, as well as take a wide range of carrier. There were also various aftermarket options made by others for them, due to their standardization. Or some of us with a bit of shop experience make our own custom gear. In this respect, 8x10 is a better option than 4x5 not only because of the greater amount of detail it will hold, but because it doesn't require as much magnification. But you need to think Durst or Devere if you want something already on the map. And no, that
Rodagon G isn't usable at f/5.6 except for general center focus. It needs to be two stops further down for edge to edge optimization.

At 22-30X magnification? Won't diffraction limitations take over in that range?

If reciprocity failure is an issue then I'm fairly sure I can cobble together a light source that will keep exposure less than a minute.
 
With 8x10 film you'd have to be down past f/32 to have a serious problem with diffraction. A bigger problem will be just coming up with the
shots themselves that hold up to this scale. Lots of people want to make big prints but don't recognize all the logistical hurdles involved. Sure, there used to be franchises which had almost a big silo or tower alongside the building, which would take any neg from anyone and make an inexpensive mural for them. Garbage in/garbage out. A billboard company can do that. But doing precise large work is in a different league. One of the factors I failed to mention in the glass versus glassless debate is that sheet films differ one from another in stiffness. Some of the classic "thick emulsion" films were fairly stiff. Today not all are; and with color sheet film, the acetate based films are downright flimsy compared to polyester base products. I have no personal interest in big just for the sake of big. Nowadays that is more easily accomplished via inkjet anyway. But no matter what you do, at over 20X magnification nothing is going to look crisp close up.
 
With 8x10 film you'd have to be down past f/32 to have a serious problem with diffraction. A bigger problem will be just coming up with the
shots themselves that hold up to this scale. Lots of people want to make big prints but don't recognize all the logistical hurdles involved. Sure, there used to be franchises which had almost a big silo or tower alongside the building, which would take any neg from anyone and make an inexpensive mural for them. Garbage in/garbage out. A billboard company can do that. But doing precise large work is in a different league. One of the factors I failed to mention in the glass versus glassless debate is that sheet films differ one from another in stiffness. Some of the classic "thick emulsion" films were fairly stiff. Today not all are; and with color sheet film, the acetate based films are downright flimsy compared to polyester base products. I have no personal interest in big just for the sake of big. Nowadays that is more easily accomplished via inkjet anyway. But no matter what you do, at over 20X magnification nothing is going to look crisp close up.

When taking images, yes. But enlarging is a different animal.:smile: Film flimsiness is definitely an issue but perhaps not with a horizontal enlarger and especially if a Negaflat carrier is used. I'm trying to stay monochrome analog so scanning is not a priority other than to post images online.
 
Enlarging is NOT a different animal. If the film plane isn't flat, it isn't flat, and there goes any allusions to making a reasonably precise print.
 
I have used a couple of De Vere 10x8” mural enlargers for both colour (mainly) and B&W work. The biggest single prints we did were 72” colour wide paper by 18’ long, this was a Kodak product.

The biggest B&W murals we were able to do were 48” (maybe 50”) wide by 18’ long, this was on Ilford paper. The major differences between the two were only that one was B&W the other colour plus the actual roll width difference.

This was RA4 for colour (prior to that EP2) and whatever Ilford B&W process was the go at the time. The time was the eighties through to the nineties.

As for reciprocity on murals, well within reason it doesn’t matter, also it isn’t that much, from actual experience here. Yep, it does happen, but to be honest, if you are doing a mural print you’ll do a test strip print, develop it, throw it on the floor under very good light, or walk outside and place it on the footpath under sunlight and check it out.

Many a time with maximum enlargements, one could be doing 15 to 20 minute exposures. This enlarger http://www.deveresecondhanddarkroom.com/17-de-vere-508h-photographic-enlarger.html in a different model, or maybe this one, has a panel hiding an array of lights, one simply opened up the panel and sat right alongside the enlarger and read a book with large type for the duration. All of the darkroom workers doing murals did it that way, read large print books that is.

Basically with mural work you need to slow down, take your time and get used to the dark. The best mural darkrooms ran De Vere enlargers, I don’t really think anything else I saw came close, doesn’t mean anything else was no good, but the De Vere I believe was the top of the tree.

These enlargers from memory, ran a 2,000W array of globes, that is, they have 8x 250W enlarger globes in the head. It gets warm, the darkroom gets warm, great in winter, not so flash in summer. All of the vertical mural enlargers I’ve used always used glass, but you could also mount without glass, which is what we often did when doing test prints. Wanna know how big a dust spot is when you are enlarging a segment of a negative with a theoretical size of 26’ (8m), essentially you do touch up with a very small house paint brush designed for going around window frames; those were the days.

Unless you really critically align your enlarger with the mural wall, then you will have more of an issue than whether to use glass or glassless negative holders. In Way Beyond Monochrome, second edition, page 440, there is some discussion and some pictures of how they built (or someone built) a LASER alignment tool rather cheaply. I would suggest this could be a very practical and useful tool for aligning your negative carrier to the mural wall. Barring that, nothing wrong with using a scratched negative.

The best mural walls I’ve ever used were covered in sheet steel and painted 18% grey, or something like that with a red cross line painted to show the centre and some horizontal and vertical lines to give you an idea for paper placement. One then used magnets to hold the paper in place. This is a very simple way of ensuring your paper is flat, or flat enough.

With regard to apertures, well almost everything we used was either f/5.6 – f/5.6½ or f/8 and these were 360mm (I think) Apo Rodenstock stuff. There were a couple of 300 lenses, but for 8x10 they didn’t cut it, too much fall off. A slightly longer than normal enlarging lens helps a real lot with edge fall off when you are stretching the friendship bit. For mural enlargements of 4x5” we used 180 Apo Rodenstocks, they were so sharp you could cut bread with them. By the way, I know you are doing B&W and generally an Apo lens is designed to be used for correcting the focus for the three colours into one point, they also make B&W prints look super crisp as well.

To obtain grain sharpness on your mural enlargements, you may find you will either need an assistant to move the focus adjustment, an electric motorised adjustment system, or do a lot of walking, whatever you do, take your time. With regard to focusing, I’ve tried various methods, with the lens wide open, with the lens down to its working aperture …………………. I would suggest you focus with the lens wide open, white light and if using glassless, wait until the neg pops, if it does pop that is.

If your neg does pop, and I’m thinking sometimes it takes 5 minutes or so to pop, and your exposure could be around that time. Then consider covering or hiding your enlarger light from the paper when you are doing an enlargement, wait for the neg to pop, then remover the cover and use a stop watch for the enlargements. It is that method I used very successfully over a long time doing mural enlargements with one of the dodgy enlargers we had. We had 14 darkrooms in our complex, by the way.

I think what you are doing is great, 20x enlargements are not that much of a big deal. The other day with a 35mm negative I did a sectional enlargement of the negative where I lifted the head up so I had a 1m wide image on the base board. Now 1,000mm divided by 36mm equals 27.78 times enlargement on my calculator. The prints were as crisp as anything.

The lenses we used in our darkrooms for 135 and 120 films were all optimised for 20x enlarging with some higher, 30x rings a bell. This 20x enlargement factor, was pretty much the minimum industry norm for professional work. The 4x5 and 8x10 lenses we used were optimised for slightly lower magnification from memory (could have been 25x and 18x for the two formats), but one still ended up with really big sharp crispy images.

Build what you think is right, it won’t be, but it will possibly be 99% right, then you can make adjustments as and when you require. I really would like to see your set-up once you have it up and running, but that will never happen.

Some food for thought!

Mick.
 
Gosh. Most mural light sources I'm familiar with would punch a giant black and white in under a minute with a process lens set at f/16. I once had a color mural head that would punch a 30x40 Ciba with a .90 (3-stop) added mask in about 10 sec. That means it would have done a far bigger RA4 print even faster. The damn high-voltage cooling fan had a higher elec bill than my whole house! I had it hooked up with four pure silicone exhaust ducts. Got rid of that colorhead due to its heat, maint expense, and overkill factor, and designed something more efficient. The DeVeres impress me less than the dedicated Durst horizontal enlargers - but those are basically a 100K system, so not exactly common. But if you needed sheer muscle (lumens), Durst offered it. But a hot-running enlarger could cost about a thousand bucks every six months to maintain. Like owning a Mercedes S. They figured it you could afford it in the first place, you could afford the maint
contract too. One more reason to build your own.
 
Recent mural job I just finished, 30 x30 inch wet silver from normal looking negatives , two stops down from wide 20 seconds to 45 seconds , 10 different negs but all within this range.

These printing times seem normal in my shop.BTW I would never consider printing without glass carriers. EVER.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom