Glass Bottles vs Plastic for Storing Developer

[gone]

Yes, this question has been beat to death, and I've asked about this recently myself, but here goes. Are glass bottles REALLY better to store your developer in? If you look on this site, or about a half dozen other photography sites, you'll see lots of opinions, but are there any honest to god chemists here that can answer this definitely? I mean, as in scientifically tested fact?

My D76 goes bad quickly and I figured it was heat. I never have any air space in the bottles, and I mix it exactly to Kodak's instructions. But I called the folks at Photographers' Formulary today on this (decided, for now, not to go w/ their improved D76), and they said it was my accordion plastic bottles that are the culprit. They breathe they said, and I needed to buy their amber/brown glass bottles. I don't need dark bottles, as everything is stored under the sink in the dark (paint is cheap, so you can always paint clear bottles anyway). I DO have a hunch that my caps probably need the Saran wrap treatment, that's a possible problem source. I just cannot imagine that great places like Freestyle Photo, who sold me the accordion bottles, would knowingly or unknowingly sell me inferior stuff. I'm not going to change developers, and I'm not going to add anything to my D76. They also said that there's a particular chemical that Kodak uses in their formula that is another culprit, and that the factory's packaging is not up to snuff, and it starts reacting w/ said chemical in Kodak's envelope before I even open it. Hmmm.

I think Kodak knows what it's doing (we'll leave the business part of the equation out of this), and I love what I get from their developer. No reason to change, I just want more consistency via longer shelf life. Sounds simple, right? Well, you try googling this for hours like I have and calling people and see how simple it is! There is absolutely no definitive consensus on the darn thing. I want just the facts, mam, as Friday used to say. Failing that, I'll try asking the pharmacists around here in the hope they know something, or just buy some glass bottles, fill them w/ marbles, and seal the top w/ Saran wrap and melted wax. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it, but what else is there to do?

 

[MattKing]

Accordion bottles are terrible, they leak air, and they are impossible to properly clean.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The best bottles for storing developer are glass. PET and PVC. People sometimes miss the fact that the cap is also important. Caps with used liners in poor condition allow more oxygen to enter than comes through the plastic bottle. BTW, food wrap is a rather poor oxygen barrier. Brown glass bottles are usually cheaper than clear white bottles. The glass that they are made of can be from recycled glass. Even before recycling it was easier to produce brown glass as less purification was need to remove the cause of the brown color which is iron.

 

[bdial]

I tried accordion bottles years ago, and found that after a few days they expanded back to the original height no matter how tight the lid was, so I ditched using them and never looked back. IMHO, they are bad for several reasons beyond the "breathing".

I use glass for anything that needs to stay fresh for extended time, for example, the replenishment store for my Xtol, and plastic otherwise. I don't mess around with marbles, but I do use inert gas to displace any air. I used a product called "bloxygen" for a while, then found a cylinder of nitrogen on Craigslist.
I also keep several sizes of bottles, so as I use things up it goes into a smaller bottle.

 

[Bruce Osgood]

In a word... yes. Glass is better than plastic.

I use XTOL developer that does not have a good reputation for stock solution longevity. I store my stock in 4 Oz. brown bottles filled to the brim and sealed with a cap that displaces a couple of drops. A 4 Oz bottle is further diluted to 1+1 at time of use to 8 Oz of working solution which is the required amount for 2 to 6 sheets of 4x5 film in a single Jobo drum.

The glass bottles provide a tremendous amount of ready to use stock solution that keeps over 6 months.

 

[Maris]

I avoid glass in my darkroom on the basis of safety. Broken glass and total volume spillage in pitch darkness is scary to think about. There are plenty of gas-impermeable plastic bottles available.

 

[trythis]

Best of both worlds, not cheap, but your stuff is touching glass, and your bottle turns to a sack of glass (and developer) if you break it.

http://www.fishersci.com/ecomm/servlet/fsproductdetail?storeId=10652&productId=764100&catalogId=29104&matchedCatNo=0343950B||0343950A&fromSearch=1&searchKey=glass||glasses||plastics||coated||plastic&highlightProductsItemsFlag=Y&endecaSearchQuery=%23store%3DScientific%23nav%3D0%23rpp%3D25%23offSet%3D0%23keyWord%3Dplastic%2Bcoated%2Bglass%23searchType%3DPROD%23SWKeyList%3D[]&xrefPartType=From&savings=0.0&xrefEvent=1386826416378_23&searchType=PROD&hasPromo=0

 

[Wayne]

Glass is better but at the same time glass is not necessary. I use PET, and so do many others with no problems. Empty soda or water bottles is what I use. I can't find them in one liter wide mouth anymore though, which really sucks. I've had to use sports drink type bottles lately, which are also PET but they are stiffer and less squeezable.

 

[baachitraka]

I store paper dev, stop, fix and toner in 1l brown glass bottles with screw cap that has seals.

 

[pierods]

You are looking for this:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/250ml-PE-Fla...59?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item25859e6a37

and possibly that too:

http://www.svt-shop.de/epages/15410466.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15410466/Products/71003

 

[Jim Taylor]

I've had terrible problems with colour dev agents oxidising because they're stored (or sold) in plastic (sometimes brand new, sealed bottles have oxidised before I've used them).

Now, I too (generally) use glass. For smaller volumes (up to say 500ml) I use any glass bottle that's around.
for larger vols of stock solutions, I tend to use the safebreak bottles, which seem to have a habit of disappearing from work

 

[PeterB]

Check out the following recent thread. Initially I begin by bragging about a neat way to seat a PET bottle lid using plumbing tape, but then conclude that mylar bladders were my preference as they kept the oxygen out longer (but not as long as glass with a good seal). (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Beer makers are concerned enough about their beer oxidising in PET bottles to prefer glass to give a decent shelf life.

 

[Dali]

Yes accordion bottles are terrible to use and I am not sure they are a safe barrier to oxygen.

Like others, I re-use PET bottles of water of different size to adapt to any storage configuration. For instance, I use LPD as paper developer and split the working solution in 0.5 liter bottles (around 2 dozens...). Those I did not used yet are in perfect condition, 4 months after I diluted the powder.

As it seems to work with LPD, I am going to try the same solution with Atomal film developer which has a pretty bad reputation in terms of shelf life.

 

[effae]

I recently purchased an accordion bottle, and was thrilled by the ingenious design. However, this feeling soon turned into (very) bitter disappointment; as I poured in my freshly mixed stock solution of D-76 and sealed the bottle, I could actually see the compact little thing rise up to its normal volume within a minute or two. Upon closer inspection on the next attempt I could hear the sound of air sipping in. How utterly disappointing!

I was thinking of trying to get a refund - this can't be normal? I could understand if the bottle would let air in under a period of a couple of days or so, but a couple of minutes?! C'mon.

I eventually stored my solution in two 0.5 l water bottles. Seems to work fine..

 

[trythis]

Can chemicals be stored in stainless? What about wine bottles with rubber corks?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

since you mix your own,where is the issue? prepare fresh every time for consistency. Idon't like the accordion bottles myself, because they are hard to clean.brown glass bottles are undoubtedlythe best my dear Watson.

 

[BMbikerider]

Glass/plastic bottles

Without a doubt GLASS - every time. I store all my chemicals in glass bottles after the original container is open. C41, solution A or 1, depending on the make and E6 1st developer will go off very quickly in opened plastic bottles. Put them in glass and as you use it top up the bottles with glass beads to raise the level of liquid and reduce the air content.

I buy a 5 litre container of Ilford Multigrade then split that down to 9 x 500cc dark brown glass bottles bought from the local Pharmacy and 5 x 100cc bottles from the same source.

I use the 5 litres in about 8-10 months and the last drop is as fresh as the 1st. RA4 colour developer is treated the same way and never ever goes off.

Stock solutions of Ilford ID11 (basically the same as D76) last almost forever if stored in glass.

There is no need to worry about breakages, most of the time when handling bottles, the light will be on - you don't worry about it in the kitchen so why worry in the darkroom. In 30 years of working in the darkroom with glass I have never had a breakage.
You could also use empty screw cap wine bottles they are just as good (so are the contents beforehand) and are virtually free.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The secret to keeping developer fresh is to buy only enough that can be used within its expiration time. If you do not develop film routinely then it makes no sense to buy the 3.8 l size. It is not only aerial oxidation that causes developer to go bad there are other processes going on. Once you dissolve the developer the clock starts. Probably the best method is to use several smaller bottles. A partially filled bottle spoils faster.

 

[fotch]

Plastic comes in several versions and the type used in the accordion version is not good like the PET type. In addition, its almost impossible to clean the accordion version. Yet, people buy them and others will sell them. Maybe OK for shortstop or fixer. Glass is class with the right caps, I like to use a bunch of small ones filled to the brim so when I open one, I use the entire contents. I think developer like D76 is good for up to 6 months.

If you need some I have a bunch of Amber Glass, 250ML, wide mouth, with cap, new, send me a PM.

Good luck.

 

[MattKing]

The secret to keeping developer fresh is to buy only enough that can be used within its expiration time. If you do not develop film routinely then it makes no sense to buy the 3.8 l size.

This is correct, except with one caveat.

Using X-Tol as an example, I can buy a 5 litre package for $12.00 (approximately).

If, after 6 months, I have only used 4 litres, and I decide to discard the rest, I am wasting $2.40.

If something like X-Tol meets your needs, it is false economy to reject it because you might waste $2.40 worth every 6 months.

 

[fotch]

This is correct, except with one caveat.

Using X-Tol as an example, I can buy a 5 litre package for $12.00 (approximately).

If, after 6 months, I have only used 4 litres, and I decide to discard the rest, I am wasting $2.40.

If something like X-Tol meets your needs, it is false economy to reject it because you might waste $2.40 worth every 6 months.

+1
I agree. A little bit of waste should not keep one from using what they like best.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

This is correct, except with one caveat.

Using X-Tol as an example, I can buy a 5 litre package for $12.00 (approximately).

If, after 6 months, I have only used 4 litres, and I decide to discard the rest, I am wasting $2.40.

If something like X-Tol meets your needs, it is false economy to reject it because you might waste $2.40 worth every 6 months.

A marvelous reason to shoot a bit more film.