Giving BVY's flexicolorC-41 chemical list a try!

I finally got around to trying this out and it worked very well. I goofed when loading the first three rolls in the tank and opened the dark bag with the lid off. I can't remember the absent minded reason for doing that but those rolls looked terrible. I managed to load the 4th without flashing it and the colors, density and grain looked closer to pro/minilab results I had gotten before the prices rose too high.
Thanks

Tried a test using the recomended replenishing schedule and the test was terrible so I will stick with one shot.
I decided to develop a 4 roll (tank 1)and mix an additional single roll (tank 2) so the left over 240ml of chemicals in my 950ml bottles didnt go bad over a week or two. I didn't have a small bottle to store extra materials last time and the chems turned brown which may be why my replenish test failed. Either way doing it the way I did yesterday was problematic because there isnt enough bleach to fill a four roll and a single roll tank.

Luckily the 6.5 minute delay didn't seem to cause any problem. After 1 minute I poured the bleach from tank 1 into Tank 2 and back into Tank 1. I Bleached tank 1 for 5.5 additional minutes then did the 6.5 in tank 2. I was thinking of it as a stop bath.

Either way, it all worked well.

Sorry if thats hard to follow. I may reword it later.

Ok BVY also convinced me, via thread:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
but a few questions before I order..

A) from post #12..

bvy said:

Right. You're more likely to have to replace your bleach due to gradual attrition than because it goes bad. Final rinse should be discarded when it becomes discolored or "dirty." If it discolors too fast (after a few rolls) it's a sign of carryover. Increase your rinse times.

Click to expand...

Its fall and already have a few rolls to develop, so should I just go ahead and order extra bleach and rinse now with the order?

I'm going to mix everything at once, but confused on storage bottles and the size to use..
I've read over the area from post #19 to 22, but still confused, most likely because the items are not all in front of me, and grouped as they will be mixed.
Nonetheless, don't like the idea of wide mouth mason jars.. and don't do that much color except in fall and spring.. so would like it in smaller containers for storage over longer time.
With my Hc110 and the old use of Blix c-41 developer, I have stored them in reused Walgreens Hydrogen Peroxide brown HDPE quart (946mm) and 16 oz (473mm) bottles. With the Hc110 divided in two 16oz bottles, the one that is being used first, I top off using marbles, to fill it back up to the brim to get rid of the excess air.
Soooo: next questions:

B) So to give me more clarity, to mix all this Flexicolor, could you please go over again how many, and what size containers do I need, for each of its 4 segments?
And your suggestion for containers?

C) BVY if you read this again... you stated you used 660m containers... in post #22..
Where are these available?

D) post #25

bvy said:

Missed that. Yes, I shake it up when I'm prepping the chemicals. An air tube is a good idea.

Click to expand...

So your saying you shake the it up while getting everything together, and let it sit a few moments before use?
And what the heck is this about an air tube? You move air through the solution so it will mix up, rather than shacking it?
How the heck is that done.. and is it really worth it?

Alas.. although it feels like I'm starting all over again with color, I think its going to be well worth it!

If you mix all of the Flexicolor developer up at once (components A, B and C from the 5L developer kit plus the required amount of starter) you'll end up with about 6.5 liters of working solution C-41 developer. I decant this into ten or eleven 600ml bottles. I use Sobe drink bottles, but the current ones are thinner and the caps are flimsy. Mine are from a couple years ago. You might want to look at 16oz. glass bottles from Specialty Bottle. Be sure to request polyseal caps. Depending on your tank size, reels, process load, etc., you'll need to decide what is a good size for you. They make bottles in many different sizes.

Bleach is pretty foolproof. Just shake it up vigorously and let it sit for at least a few minutes before use. Some people use things like aquarium air pumps to aerate their bleach, but I've not found it necessary. That's what the air tube is about.

Good luck. Post back if you have more questions.

I have just gotten to the point of needing to reorder the replenisher and half my fixer is toast. This last batch I poured the bleach in and out of the developing tank to up the oxygen and the negatives came out with a lot less of the orange base than my previous batches. I also started on the second half of my fixer. I am really pleased with how much these negatives look like the came from a lab. So far, my best c41 results yet.

A couple of things I have learned about containers:
I mix A B and C into several 1.8 liter relabeled PETE juice containers with no air at the top for longer storage and that worked well for several months. Once I take some out I redecant into smaller PETE containers but occasionally had small amounts that I didn't have the right sized bottle for and had the store them in half filled bottles. It turned brown and was worthless after a couple weeks.
I used some HDPE bottles with paper lined caps but used pieces of nitrile glove under the cap a few time and that worked fine for a few weeks as long as there was no air space. The glove part was sticking out all around, not cut perfectly.
I don't worry about air in the starter bottle and waited to add it and the water to save storage space.
Now that I have gotten used to this I feel like I an forgetting something with b&w developing.

You might consider getting some marbles.. I've done this with B&W chemicals and it has worked very well for me.
I went and purchase pint and half glass mason jars (24oz) for my containers. Easy to get new lids for them.
~~~~
I'm still awaiting my full shipment from Unique,, one of the two packages got here on Wednesday, all that was in it was the developer.. There had been a rip in the box and someone had taped it up after the other three items had gone missing. Called UPS and the other package had been sent back directly because it was damaged in transit. So Unique shipped the missing items on Friday and should get them Thursday. Got 6 rolls awaiting.

Ok .. Tried this question in a new tread (Flexicolor confusion) but didn't work.. perhaps worded the questions poorly.. so will try again here ..
Bleach / Fix (Which can be reused)
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...sing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

You open these containers and place into two separate sealed containers.
There to be used as is, and not made into a solution, correct?

Soooo is:
Part 1 Bleach?
making
Part 2 Fixer?

Could find nothing in the archives that gave clarity to this.

peter k. said:

Ok .. Tried this question in a new tread (Flexicolor confusion) but didn't work.. perhaps worded the questions poorly.. so will try again here ..
Bleach / Fix (Which can be reused)
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...sing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

You open these containers and place into two separate sealed containers.
There to be used as is, and not made into a solution, correct?

Soooo is:
Part 1 Bleach?
making
Part 2 Fixer?

Could find nothing in the archives that gave clarity to this.

Click to expand...

Use the bleach straight. Mix the fixer 1+1 with water. The bleach is the dark greenish-black liquid. The fixer is clear.

Thank you for all your help, have everything mixed, bottled and ready to do a test roll, but have some remaining questions.
1) At temperature 100f: Pre soak how often and how long?
2)

bvy said:

Bleach is pretty foolproof. Just shake it up vigorously and let it sit for at least a few minutes before use.

Click to expand...

Its timing is 3.0 minutes, but do you agitate it after you pour it in?
If so... the timings.
As for the fixer you of course agitate and go for 6.o minutes .

3) Plain water rinse after Bleach and Fixer..
With B&W my rinsing is the Illford 3 step Method.. Is this enough rinse to clear the Bleach?
Is keeping the temp to 100f more critical for the Bleach rinse cycle than for the Fixer rinse cycle?
(Ilford 3 step method First 10 inversions, drain. Second 20 inversions, drain Third 30 inversions, drain.)

4) Final rinse looks allot like sticky of the BLIX color routine! Before doing the stabilizer, I would removed the film from the developing reel, and then with the emulsion side in, gently raise and lower each end through a large jar of stabilizer. This stopped all that clean up routine with all that sticky stuff.
Is there any reason why this also couldn't be done with the Flexicolor final rinse?

Thanks for your help... had to get another Crock Pot to so I can preheat the larger array of chemicals and bottles.

peter k. said:

Thank you for all your help, have everything mixed, bottled and ready to do a test roll, but have some remaining questions.
1) At temperature 100f: Pre soak how often and how long?
2)
Its timing is 3.0 minutes, but do you agitate it after you pour it in?
If so... the timings.
As for the fixer you of course agitate and go for 6.o minutes .

3) Plain water rinse after Bleach and Fixer..
With B&W my rinsing is the Illford 3 step Method.. Is this enough rinse to clear the Bleach?
Is keeping the temp to 100f more critical for the Bleach rinse cycle than for the Fixer rinse cycle?
(Ilford 3 step method First 10 inversions, drain. Second 20 inversions, drain Third 30 inversions, drain.)

4) Final rinse looks allot like sticky of the BLIX color routine! Before doing the stabilizer, I would removed the film from the developing reel, and then with the emulsion side in, gently raise and lower each end through a large jar of stabilizer. This stopped all that clean up routine with all that sticky stuff.
Is there any reason why this also couldn't be done with the Flexicolor final rinse?

Thanks for your help... had to get another Crock Pot to so I can preheat the larger array of chemicals and bottles.

Click to expand...

You can reuse the bleach seemingly forever but you loose a little every time. I accidentally lost too much and had to add a little bit of water to cover a 4 roll tank. It worked fine.
The fixer will just stop working after a while, but it comes with enough to make more than twice the volume of bleach. I used a liter of fixer till it started smelling terrible and was getting dark then swapped out. Since they come in a kit of both bleach and fix, you can just toss the bleach when you buy a new kit.

Pre soak is just a minute or two to heat up the film and tank. I have presoaked for as little as a minute and as long as 10 minutes, not sure it makes any difference.

peter k. said:

Thank you for all your help, have everything mixed, bottled and ready to do a test roll, but have some remaining questions.
1) At temperature 100f: Pre soak how often and how long?
2)
Its timing is 3.0 minutes, but do you agitate it after you pour it in?
If so... the timings.
As for the fixer you of course agitate and go for 6.o minutes .

3) Plain water rinse after Bleach and Fixer..
With B&W my rinsing is the Illford 3 step Method.. Is this enough rinse to clear the Bleach?
Is keeping the temp to 100f more critical for the Bleach rinse cycle than for the Fixer rinse cycle?
(Ilford 3 step method First 10 inversions, drain. Second 20 inversions, drain Third 30 inversions, drain.)

4) Final rinse looks allot like sticky of the BLIX color routine! Before doing the stabilizer, I would removed the film from the developing reel, and then with the emulsion side in, gently raise and lower each end through a large jar of stabilizer. This stopped all that clean up routine with all that sticky stuff.
Is there any reason why this also couldn't be done with the Flexicolor final rinse?

Thanks for your help... had to get another Crock Pot to so I can preheat the larger array of chemicals and bottles.

Click to expand...

The most critical step is the developer -- time and temperature. I agitate for thirty seconds, then do two quick inversions every 15 seconds for the remainder of the developing time -- which is 3:15 by the way. The other steps are more forgiving, but in any case...
- I do two presoaks in tempered water (95 to 105F) for about a minute (each) before the developer step. This brings the tank and film closer to processing temperature and aids with good even development.
- You want a very thorough rinse after both the bleach and fixer steps. Kodak prescribes three minutes of rinsing with constantly changing water. Fill the tank, agitate vigorously for a few seconds, dump and repeat -- 15 to 20 times is good. I don't think you can (reasonably) over-rinse.
- Bleach and fixer steps (and rinses) can be between 95 and 105F -- even outside that range, but if your temperatures between baths are all over the place, you need to look again at your process. I preheat all the baths to 100F and then let the post-developer baths "drift" -- so bleach might be at 98, fixer at 96, final rinse at 93. You get the idea.
- Some initial agitation, then agitation every 30 seconds or so, is fine for bleach and fixer. It's hard to apply incorrect agitation here unless you're doing something outrageous.
- You could do the see-saw method for the final rinse (I would avoid kit stabilizers), but there's no reason you can't soak the film while still on the reels. You want to wash the reels in very hot water immediately after removing the film.

Worth reposting -- link to PE's copy of Kodak's C-41 processing instructions, which still applies:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I make only two modifications:
- I add a stop and rinse after developer.
- The F2 kit bleach is a "fast acting" bleach, so I cut the time in half to 3 minutes. (Technically, I think the F2 bleach is advertised as working in 1 minute, but no harm taking it longer.)

trythis said:

You can reuse the bleach seemingly forever

Click to expand...

How do you know when its going south?
With B&W, to check the fixer, I would just take a strip of undeveloped film (I cut 4x5 down to several sizes) and whisk a portion in the fixer. If it didn't become clear in about a minute I would replace it and mix a new batch.
Can you do the same with C-41?

bvy said:

You want a very thorough rinse after both the bleach and fixer steps ... 15 to 20 times is good

Click to expand...

WOW!!!

bvy said:

I preheat all the baths to 100F and then let the post-developer baths "drift" -- so bleach might be at 98, fixer at 96, final rinse at 93. You get the idea.

Click to expand...

Yes.. with the crock pots that will work well, that way can just center on temp for the developer and the rest can be alright.

bvy said:

- You could do the see-saw method for the final rinse (I would avoid kit stabilizers)

Click to expand...

Yes... the kit stabilizers, is the reason that I am here. Using the Flexicolor is going to really commit me to color for a while. In the past I only really shot a little in spring and just used the kits.. Now I'm even thinking of getting some color 4x5 and giving it a try, ah... once I have the process down.

Thank's to both of you.. for Trythis making this thread and bvy for all the expert use and advice... will give a try tomorrow and see how it goes.

Kodak publication CIS-211 ("Using KODAK FLEXICOLOR Chemicals in a Small Tank") describes the processing steps and agitation procedure. It assumes the "SM" version of the chemicals but still pretty much matches what has been said here.

The document also provides information about capacity and shelf life of one quart/litre bottle of bleach, fixer and final rinse. I find it somewhat suspicious that all three of these chemicals are supposed to have the same capacity of 10 rolls of 135-36 film and the same shelf life of 8 weeks. So this is likely a very conservative statement. But at least it's the official word from Kodak.

bvy said:

(something like 200ml of starter to 1350ml of water). You end up with ~6.5 liters of working solution.

Click to expand...

Post #22
Well searched all my notes ect... my bottle instructions are non English.... so we went ahead and mixed up the 5 litters of developer, but when adding this amount we are 200ml short of 6.5 litters.. so is this the proper mix or is it...???? ..
Thanks.. p.

peter k. said:

Post #22
Well searched all my notes ect... my bottle instructions are non English.... so we went ahead and mixed up the 5 litters of developer, but when adding this amount we are 200ml short of 6.5 litters.. so is this the proper mix or is it...???? ..
Thanks.. p.

Click to expand...

Even if it's off that small amount it won't matter. I've been off a full liter and the chems worked just fine. (1 liter extra - too much water)

I was very pleased to come across this post. I've been looking for a good alternative to the available kits.
I didn't see much here about storage life though. What can one expect from the concentrates in the case of mixing small batches and what can you expect from working (mixed) chemicals (assume good storage conditions, containers (glass with cover gas and air tight caps, all chemicals mixed with distilled water)?

Will this work using small tanks and manual agitation?

Thanks

Born2Late said:

I was very pleased to come across this post. I've been looking for a good alternative to the available kits.
I didn't see much here about storage life though. What can one expect from the concentrates in the case of mixing small batches and what can you expect from working (mixed) chemicals (assume good storage conditions, containers (glass with cover gas and air tight caps, all chemicals mixed with distilled water)?

Will this work using small tanks and manual agitation?

Thanks

Click to expand...

If you mix it all up and seal the bottles good (like using carbonated soda bottles) it last months upon months. I'm using a 7 month old batch that's fine.

Yes on the small tanks and manual agitation.

pbo said:

Hey trythis, I use the same setup, except for this 20L developer:
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-entwickler-flxclr-devr-rplr-3667805

One problem you might encounter.. They might call you and tell you you can't just buy 1 F2 unit, it comes in packs of 2.

Click to expand...

Is this product a solution that is used as developer and replenisher, or is there separate developer and replenishers shipped together in the carton?

pbo said:

Hey trythis, I use the same setup, except for this 20L developer:
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-entwickler-flxclr-devr-rplr-3667805

One problem you might encounter.. They might call you and tell you you can't just buy 1 F2 unit, it comes in packs of 2.

Click to expand...

Hello,

Can you please post the exact measurements you use when mixing this developer, 3667805, and LORR starter:

C-41 Developer Starter ($13.00)
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

Thanks! I'm trying to emulate this but want to get exact measurements correct from someone for whom it is working.

nevintagefilms said:

Hello,

Can you please post the exact measurements you use when mixing this developer, 3667805, and LORR starter:

C-41 Developer Starter ($13.00)
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

Thanks! I'm trying to emulate this but want to get exact measurements correct from someone for whom it is working.

Click to expand...

On each bottle in the replenisher kit there is writing of how much liquid is in it. Add those together (according to notes, 482ml), then subtract from 5000. Add that much water and you now have 5L of replenisher. Then follow instructions for starter. From my literally half torn notes I found (ie, please double check this) it should be 1356ml of water and 196ml of starter added to the 5L of replnisher to make 6.55L of working strength developer.

I use the flexicolor chemicals for C-41 and have had nothing but good results. The bleach and fix are both very stable both mixed and as concentrates. I aerate the bleach after each processing session (ie, shake in a halt empty bottle) which seems to make it last a lot longer. I just mix 1L of bleach and fix at a time. I also mix 1L of final rinse at a time and reuse it for typically 10 or so sessions. For the developer I mix it all at once. Once opened the concentrates are very unstable and the part C will discolor within a few days. This makes 6.55L of developer at a time. I make sure to keep a mix of 500ml and 1L plastic bottles. (yea, glass would be better, but I don't have any), typically 5 1L bottles and 3 500ml bottles. I mix the solution in a bucket and use the math above to determine how much water and starter to add. I then decant it into all the bottles, measuring it out into a graduate first (bottles aren't precise). There's typically a small bit left over (~50ml probably) that I just toss. I then keep all the developer in a chemical fridge and only take a bottle out when I intend to use it. I use it one-shot only. Despite being used one-shot it is still significantly cheaper per-roll than a typical Tetenal C-41 kit. I've kept the developer for ~6 months before in this method and never had any problems with color of the solution nor the results on film. I've heard that one you use the developer for processing film, it shouldn't be kept for very long as it will decay much quicker once it comes into contact with film, like a catalyst reaction or something. So one-shot is definitely the safest way to go unless you're processing a few batches at a time and going to do it all within a few days.

Exact Kodak recommendations for a hand tank are a bit different from typical powder kit instructions. Specifically it recommends using 100F (rather than 102F) for the processing temperature (I typically use 101F). It also recommends only 3m15s, with 10s of that being for pouring out the developer. The agitation method is also different and recommends for agitating 2 times in 2 seconds every 15s and 10s for initial agitation. Otherwise the recommended process is:

* developer (no pre-rinse)
* bleach
* rinse for 3m
* fix
* rinse for 3m30s
* final rinse

Personally I do a rinse in between developer and bleach to make the bleach last longer and to reduce the amount of air produced from the bleach. In theory this can slightly affect color balance though due to uneven stopping of development, whereas the bleach is acidic enough to do double-duty as a stop bath that works across all layers quickly.

The Final Rinse listed in the chemicals is NLA. I'm looking for some right now and not having any luck.