Gevachrome and orwochrome and E6

narigas2006 · Jun 25, 2008

Dear all,

I shot a few meters of gevachrome 702 reversal film and I will try to develop it this weekend. It seems that hot E6 will definitely destroy it, so, I plan to try the following:

BW dev, re-exp, and C41 (at room temp)

e6 (tetenal kit) at room dev.

If that does not work, I will buy a dev. kit that develops svema and orwochrome. Anyway, I wonder if anyone knows if gevachrome and orvochrome uses a similar process...

Btw, I found this site with formulas;:
http://www.keyong.de/954830-agfacol...me-pre-e-6-orwochrome-entwicklung-development

Ian Grant · Jun 25, 2008

Formulae for processing both these films were published in the British Journal Photography Almanac in the 50's, I do have them but unfortunately not with me. The link you posted is probably very similar, I think the Gevaert film used similar technology.

The chemistry is quite different to E6, or more specifically the older E2, E3/4 processes, which were used at lower temperatures. You might need to use a pre-hardening bath.

I'll see what other info I may have here in the UK this evening.

Ian

srs5694 · Jun 25, 2008

For the room-temp C-41, you might consider (there was a url link here which no longer exists) This is a room-temperature (75F) divided developer for C-41. I wouldn't recommend it for most real C-41 films (see my comments in the thread to which I linked for details), but for playing around with other films in the way you suggest, it might be better than trying to use a more conventional C-41 formula at room temperature.

Best of luck with it, however you proceed.

Domin · Jun 25, 2008

If anyone needs, I have formulae for both negative and reversal color orwo process. They are different than geva you gave link to. Orwo uses T22 (TSS) as color developer, while geva uses T32.

There is a lab here, in Warsaw, witch processes color orwo, both negs and slides in original process.

If processed in spiral tank, the film might survive regular E6. I've developed once a roll of orwo UT21 in regular c41 and it worked. Emulsion swelled and drying took quite long, but I got a neg with from-behind-the-iron-curtain colors.

It's worth to try run process at lowered temp. For orwo PC7 I use c41 kit. Color dev for 8 mins at 25C. It works. Can't say much about color balance, as it's old cine print film.

I also suspect that processing color orwo films in c41 and possibly e6 might seriously affect sharpness. But that is just a hypothesis to be checked.

Photo Engineer · Jun 25, 2008

I believe that they used Dicolamine, which is a relative of CD-4. That does not mean that they are interchangable.

The Dignan NCF-41 will not work properly with some films as it is a 2 bath developer and relies on the thickness of the film to supply the correct amount of imbibed chemistry. In fact, this is a failing of all 2 bath developers.

Some ORWO films used CD-1 as color developing agent. This is N,N Diethyl -p-phenylene diamine . HCl IIRC. Both developing agents are still available from many sources.

PE

Ian Grant · Jun 25, 2008

Depending where you are, if you need Colour developing agents PM me, I have CD-1, 2, 3 & 4, Genochrome, Mydochrome and possibly some others which I'm about to put in storage in the next few days.

Ian.

narigas2006 · Jun 26, 2008

I was planning to develop in a rewind tank, so it seems a bad idea right? Anyway, would also be a good idea to preharden it? Would anyone have a good pre-hardening formula that I should try? Mercy!

Photo Engineer · Jun 26, 2008

Prehardener:

500 ml water
100 g Sodium SulfATE
3 ml 37% formalin
50 g Sodium Carbonate

Water to 1 L, pH to about 9 - 10

Treat film for 5' at 68 F (20 C) and then wash for 10 mins. Continue with first developer.

PE

narigas2006 · Jun 27, 2008

Guys, you're awesome! I have to say, this forum rocks! Anyway, I think I've got an idea about the developer, but the bleach, could I use e6 or c41? Thanks heaps.

richardson

Ian Grant · Jun 27, 2008

Any bleach should be fine, but the original process would have used quite a simple ferricyanide/bromide bleach, followed by fixer.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jun 27, 2008

Both films probably formed the leuco (colorless) form of the dye and required a ferricyanide bleach as Ian says.

The process would be:

First developer
wash
re-expose
Color developer
wash
Clear
wash
Bleach
wash
Fix
wash
Stabilizer

PE

narigas2006 · Jun 27, 2008

A simpler bleach would save me a fortune! Would you have any formula for the

bleach and the stabiliser? And PE, the clear part is new to me, what do i clean the color dev with?

Many many thanks!!!

Richardson

PS: I would also be very greatful for a single color dev formula...

Ian Grant · Jun 27, 2008

Bleach

Potassium Ferricyanide 50g
Potassium Thiocyanate 7.5g
Potassium Bromide 15g
Water to 1 litre

May work fine without the thiocyanate, bleach to completion.

Stabiliser

Formaldehyde 37% soln 6 ml
Wetting agent 10% soln 10 ml
Water to 1 litre

I-2 minutes.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jun 27, 2008

I would leave the thiocyanate out of the bleach.

Clearing bath would be about 50 g/l of sodium sulFITE at a pH of about 7.

Stabilzers varied, but Ian's is good. It might require a very dilute buffer at pH 4.5 though. Early ones did.

I'll see if I have an early CD and First developer.

PE

Ian Grant · Jun 27, 2008

If you have access to an early 60's British Journal Photography Almanac the correct Gevaert formula is listed, unfortunately I'm visiting the UK & my copy's in Turkey.

You may also need to add hardener, usually Potassium Alum 30 g/litre to the Bleach, this is quite common for Orwo, Perutz, Ferrania processes.

Ian

narigas2006 · Jun 29, 2008

Guys, again, you're amazing! I think I am getting there and I just have to adjust some steps. It's not perfect but i have a positive image and some colors. So, I use all @ room temp: BW dev (d19), stop, color dev (c41 kit from tentenal), bleach and fix. Just a few more things:

the color developer... Would u have any formula with cd1, cd2 or cd3 (preferably as I have it already) that I could try? I will order more of the K ferricyanade and I was thinking in maybe getting stuff for the color dev.

Muchas gracias!

Photo Engineer · Jun 29, 2008

I would not use CD3 for these films. It is too low in activity. I would also suggest about 1/2 gram NaCNS in the first developer (Sodium Thiocyanate).

PE

Ian Grant · Jun 30, 2008

If you can wait just over a week I'll post the Gevaert formulae for you.

Ian

narigas2006 · Jun 30, 2008

Thanks Heaps Ian!

Ian Grant · Jul 13, 2008

Gevaert Colour Reversal processing

First Developer
Metol 1.5g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 25g
Hydroquinone 4.4g
Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 31.5g
Potassium Iodide 0.1% 5ml
Potassium Thiocyanate 1g
Water to 1 litre

2nd - ColourDeveloper
Droxychrome 1.5g
Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 74g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 1.5g
Water to 1 litre

Bleach Hardener
Sodiun Acetate 30g
Potassium Alum 30g
Borax 10g
Potassium Ferricyanide 30g
Potassium Bromide 15g
Water to 1 litre

Stabiliser
40% Formaldehyde 50ml
Water to 1 litre

First Development 11 mins @ 20°
Stop 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
Reexpose 1 min
Colour Developer 11 min @ 20°C
Stop 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
Bleach approx 7 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 2 mins
Fix 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 10 mins
Stabilise 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Rinse 30 secs

The Development stages should be controlled to within + or - a quarter of a degree C.

No specific fixer is listed.

Droxychrome was a May & Baker colour developing agent, Johnsons Activol No 8, T 32 VEB Agfa, Wolfen is the same compound: Ethyl-hydroxyethyl-p-phenylendiaminsulphate

You would either need to find a source for this colour developing agent or try substituting Genochrome (May & Baker), Activol 1, 6 or 7 (Johnsons).

Failing that try CD-2, CD-3 or CD-4. Droxychrome is mentioned alongside CD-3 & CD-4 in some Japanese patents.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jul 13, 2008

This developer is closest in structure to CD-4 but will be a bit more active than CD-4.

I have never heard of a bleach hardener like that.

PE

Ian Grant · Jul 13, 2008

I have seen similar bleach hardeners, from a German source, and also other extra hardener steps in the process.

These are European film processes based around Agfa technology and a bit different t Kodak Ektachrome E2 and E3. The Kodak E3 process was a real pleasure to use after trying a couple of kits for Agfa and Ferrania films.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jul 13, 2008

I used to run Agfa and Gevaert color paper processes at Kodak to compare them with Kodak products. The processes were interesting, but not like these and Agfa used a vastly different color developing agent. Fuji was essentially non-existant in the market at that time.

PE

narigas2006 · Jul 16, 2008

So, I have heaps of CD-3, PE said that it's not as active as CD4, Artcraft sells cd3 and cd2, should I try to get cd2? or just try with high conc of cd3
? Many many thanks!

richardson

Ian Grant · Jul 16, 2008

Alternative Gevaert processing

Here's a 1954 alternative, it uses Genochrome rather than Droxychrome, note it uses half the carbonate in the 2nd Colour developer, and a simpler bleach, times are also different:

First Developer
Metol 1.5g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 25g
Hydroquinone 4.4g
Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 31.5g
Potassium Bromide 5g
Potassium Thiocyanate 3.5g
Water to 1 litre

Stop & Clear
Acetic Acid (glacial) 20ml
Water to 1 litre

2nd - Colour Developer
Genochrome 2g
Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 37g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 3g
Water to 1 litre

Bleach
Potassium Ferricyanide 25g
Potassium Bromide 10g
Water to 1 litre

Fix
Sodium Thiosulphate (cryst) 200g
Borax 10g
Water to 1 litre

Stabiliser
40% Formaldehyde 50ml
Water to 1 litre

First Development 14 mins @ 20°
Stop & Clear 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
Re-expose 1 min
Colour Developer 12 min @ 20°C
Stop & Clear 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
Bleach approx 7 mins @ 16°-18°C
Rinse 1 mins
Fix 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Wash 12 mins
Stabilise 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
Rinse 30 secs

You can try substituting CD-3 for the Genochrome but you may need to experiment with the 2nd development time, also the variation of the Carbonate level between the two formula are probably to compensate for the different levels of activity of the colour developing agents.

Ian

Gevachrome and orwochrome and E6

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