Getting a barrel lens into a shutter

BHuij · Jan 23, 2022

I recently picked up a nice APO-Nikkor 300mm f/9 from a popular auction site. It’s just a barrel lens right now, but threaded for the elusive Compur 2.

Finding a Compur 2 (let alone a working one) is a tall order these days. The rest of my 4x5 glass is all mounted in Copal shutters. Is there some way to adapt the threading so the lens can go into a more readily available shutter? I’m not super picky about what kind of shutter, just need one that works and has speeds up to 1/100 or so.

Or is there some other viable option for getting a shutter onto this lens so I can use it faster than ~1/2s without introducing unacceptable levels of human error?

abruzzi · Jan 23, 2022

You'll need a thread adapter of some kind. Ask a machinist or skgrimes.com. You'll want to go up in size, so the shutter doesn't obstruct the light path. Copal/Compur 3's are pretty pricy, but I have bought them without glass. Alternatively, you might find them cheaper if you find a bad lens mounted on a good shutter. One of the cheaper largeish shutter seems to the the Shanel. I've never used one, but they cam frequently be bought for ~$100 or so. There are several models, including one with no aperture that was, I assume, specifically intended for front mounting lenses. I can't say anything about their quality or accuracy.

Finally, if you happen to shoot a Sinar camera, Sinar made a shutter that mounts between the front standard and the bellows. This allows you to easily mount a barrel lens on a lens board, and use the shutter on that. They're pricy though since the a re very popular to use as a shutter for old brass barrel lenses.

btaylor · Jan 23, 2022

And of course the Packard shutter, mounted either behind or in front of the lens. Only good up to about 1/20 sec however- but cheap with good availability on the used market.

Dan Fromm · Jan 24, 2022

BHuij said:
I recently picked up a nice APO-Nikkor 300mm f/9 from a popular auction site. It’s just a barrel lens right now, but threaded for the elusive Compur 2.

If you got this information from https://skgrimes.com/products/lens-mounting-to-shutter/ you may be mistaken. The page shows a 305/9 ApoNikkor in a Compur #2, not a 300/9. The two lenses are different. The 305 is a dialyte type, the 300 is a much smaller Apo-Tessar clone.

Which format do you intend to use the lens on? I ask because neither will cover 8x10.

abruzzi · Jan 24, 2022

btaylor said:
And of course the Packard shutter, mounted either behind or in front of the lens. Only good up to about 1/20 sec however- but cheap with good availability on the used market.

yes, forgot to mention that one. Packard shutters aren't high tech, but you can usually find them for ~$100, well below the $500 starting price of the Sinar shutters, though on most cameras, you'll have to figure out mounting. One benefit of the sinar shutter is if you use a Sinar, mounting is easy.

Sirius Glass · Jan 24, 2022

abruzzi said:
You'll need a thread adapter of some kind. Ask a machinist or skgrimes.com. You'll want to go up in size, so the shutter doesn't obstruct the light path. Copal/Compur 3's are pretty pricy, but I have bought them without glass. Alternatively, you might find them cheaper if you find a bad lens mounted on a good shutter. One of the cheaper largeish shutter seems to the the Shanel. I've never used one, but they cam frequently be bought for ~$100 or so. There are several models, including one with no aperture that was, I assume, specifically intended for front mounting lenses. I can't say anything about their quality or accuracy.

Finally, if you happen to shoot a Sinar camera, Sinar made a shutter that mounts between the front standard and the bellows. This allows you to easily mount a barrel lens on a lens board, and use the shutter on that. They're pricy though since the a re very popular to use as a shutter for old brass barrel lenses.

I have used skgrimes.com for such projects. The price is has always been more than worth it.

GKC · Jan 30, 2022

My 300mm f9 Nikkor M is a direct fit into a Copal 3. IIRC some 300 Ms fit in the Copal 3, others require a Copal 3S.

Alan Edward Klein · Jan 30, 2022

GKC said:
My 300mm f9 Nikkor M is a direct fit into a Copal 3. IIRC some 300 Ms fit in the Copal 3, others require a Copal 3S.

My Nikkor 300mm M f/9 came with a Copal 1 shutter.

Dan Fromm · Jan 30, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
My Nikkor 300mm M f/9 came with a Copal 1 shutter.

Is it the same mechanical design as the OP's 300/9 Apo-Nikkor?

Alan Edward Klein · Jan 30, 2022

Dan Fromm said:
Is it the same mechanical design as the OP's 300/9 Apo-Nikkor?

I replied (quoted) to GKC's post.

GKC · Jan 31, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
I replied (quoted) to GKC's post.

My brain fart! It is a Copal 3----the bigger one, not the smaller 1.
But there is a difference between the Copal 3 and a 3S which the OP should be aware of.

BHuij · Feb 7, 2022

Did a bit of reading. Seems Copal 3 would be the obvious answer here. I'd love to keep costs down though, the whole reason I picked this lens up is because it was inexpensive, but had a reputation for good sharpness.

To that end, it looks like it's pretty easy to get a working condition Shanel 5A on eBay for about $100 shipped (usually from Japan). The diameters are apparently similar to or identical to the Copal #3 (not 3s). Can't seem to find whether the thread pitch matches or not. Even if they're not immediately compatible, it would be a simple matter of fabricating a thread adapter, since there's diameter to spare. Anyone ever used a Shanel 5A? I'm not finding any horror stories online, so I'm tempted to pick one up.

abruzzi · Feb 7, 2022

I’ve never used a shanel shutter, but I was looking for a cheap one once, and I noticed that most of the cheapest ones on eBay don’t have retaining rings. Unless you are or know a machinist, you’ll probably spend $25-50 for a retaining ring, so keep that in mind when you price them out. If one with a ring is $20 more, I’d lean towards paying the extra. (As someone addicted to low cost LF lenses, I’ve found that what starts off cheap can get expensive quick. I always look for: retaining ring, lens caps, and Technika lens board. If the lens doesn’t have those things I add the cost in my head before deciding. I also look for other costs like wrong aperture scale.)

BHuij · Feb 7, 2022

Good advice. One joy of owning a 3D printer is that I can easily throw together a design for custom thread adapters, retaining rings, etc. and print one for pennies. 3 of my 4 technica lens boards are printed. Material and energy cost is about $1.

Still, it would probably be worth paying a little extra for a proper OEM retaining ring on the shutter if I decide to buy one. Thanks for the heads up.

BHuij · Feb 19, 2022

My Shanel 5A arrived yesterday in great condition. The rear threads are M63.7x1, so I printed a custom lens board that essentially has a built-in retention ring with those threads, and a bit of a standoff so the shutter can clear the front standard of my camera. The shutter is almost comically enormous, I didn't properly grasp the size of it from seeing pictures.

The lens itself is a little more mysterious. It's listed as "threaded for Compur #2" with a 52mm thread diameter and no thread pitch specified. SK Grimes' site says that Compur #2 is somewhat less standardized than other Compur designations. I ended up just measuring the thread pitch and diameter myself and ended up with about M52.5x0.75. So I'll need to print one more ring that has that spec for internal threads, and about M64x1 or thereabouts threaded on the outside so it will go into the front of the shutter. After that I should be off to the races. Thanks all for your help!

BHuij · Feb 19, 2022

Here's the final result. Everything is a snug fit and attached strongly enough that I'm totally confident using it in the field, despite plastic threads. It all works as intended, it just looks absolutely ridiculous

abruzzi · Feb 20, 2022

That is a big shutter! There was a compound 5 (also a very big shutter) on the bay recently and I though about it for something like this purpose, but I needed to stop myself.

Dan Fromm · Feb 20, 2022

abruzzi said:
That is a big shutter! There was a compound 5 (also a very big shutter) on the bay recently and I though about it for something like this purpose, but I needed to stop myself.

According to https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138340-Shanel-shutter-info-needed, the Shanel 5's maximum opening is 51 mm. The Compound 5's is 64.5 mm and the Ilex 5's is 63 mm.

Years ago I found an industrial Compound 5 (no diaphragm) offered at a very reasonable price and grabbed it "in case of need." I later found a use for it, I hang it in front of my 900/10 Apo-Saphir.

Compound 5s and Ilex 5s are usually quite expensive. If the Compound 5 you found wasn't, you probably should have bought it, if only to resell later.

abruzzi · Feb 20, 2022

It sold for $125,but needed a CLA. I think it was a #5 based on specs I found in a post in LFF (a bunch of dimensions of most of the compound shutters) but the seller didn’t specify:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203822691302

I have a bad habit of buying things I don’t need because they are a good deal and I think I might need them sometime. So I talked myself out of it.

M Carter · Feb 21, 2022

Just a note on mentions of used prices for Packard shutters - they still make 'em new, and prices are pretty reasonable. (I had no idea until someone pointed me to their site). They also have electric shutters and flash sync available. When you look at the bombed-out used models, getting a new seems even more reasonable, though I've yet to try one.

BHuij · Feb 22, 2022

Packard looks like a reasonably good option. That said, my Shanel 5A seems to be working great. I tested the speeds today. A few are right on. Several are 1/3 stop slow. the upper end (1/50 and 1/100) are significantly slower than nominal, but still usable and consistent.

TPL_London · Mar 1, 2022

this will probably come too late ... but I'm working on an electronic LF leaf shutter

BHuij · Mar 1, 2022

Looks awesome! Even if I'm all set on this particular lens, I could see myself using something like this in the future if I pick up another barrel lens.

Getting a barrel lens into a shutter

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