Genuine or Substitute Borax Identification

[BobUK]

Genuine Borax is a bit difficult to source by amateurs in Great Britain.
There is plenty of Substitute Borax available but it's no use for developers.


Apart from trusting the label on the packet, how do I identify genuine from substitute ?

 

[runswithsizzers]

I don't have an answer, but apparently the challenge for the chemists among us is,
What test results are different for sodium sesquicarbonate vs. sodium tetraborate or sodium borate?

 

[koraks]

Apart from trusting the label on the packet, how do I identify genuine from substitute ?

Try making slime with it. If it works, you've got real borax (or at least a boron-based compound, so usually borax). It won't work with sodium sesquicarbonate.

 

[pentaxuser]

Try making slime with it. If it works, you've got real borax (or at least a boron-based compound, so usually borax). It won't work with sodium sesquicarbonate.

For those of us that don't know how to. How do you make slime?

Thanks

 

[Alan Johnson]

Genuine Borax is a bit difficult to source by amateurs in Great Britain.
There is plenty of Substitute Borax available but it's no use for developers.


Apart from trusting the label on the packet, how do I identify genuine from substitute ?

It's cheaper to buy fresh from a reputable photographic supplier than buy the chemicals to identify an unknown sample.

BelliniFoto Photographic Grade Borax ~ 200g - Nik & Trick Photo Services

BelliniFoto Photographic Grade Borax is another product of the highest grade from BelliniFoto and one of many uses...

ntphotoworks.com

 

[koraks]

For those of us that don't know how to. How do you make slime?

Thanks

Use your favorite search engine and search for "borax slime". Pick the guide with the prettiest illustrations.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Try making slime with it. If it works, you've got real borax (or at least a boron-based compound, so usually borax). It won't work with sodium sesquicarbonate.

Are you sure?

How to Make Slime with Baking Soda | Arm & Hammer

Baking soda slime with simple ingredients provides hours of fun with your kids. Avoid unnecessary chemicals by knowing how to make slime with baking soda and glue.

www.armandhammer.com

 

[koraks]

Are you sure?

Well, I'm pretty sure the sesquicarbonate won't make slime. Apparently people tried it and it didn't work: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ask/questions/Tx1TKCD5286J7B5/ref=ask_ql_ql_al_hza

Also, the borate-free slime won't be as slimy and durable as the real thing. Here are a few suggestions to make borate-free slime: https://littlebinsforlittlehands.com/borax-free-slime-recipe-ideas/

Alternatively, turn some of the supposed borax into boric acid and use it to color a flame green; with sesquicarbonate, there won't be any green.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Well, I'm pretty sure the sesquicarbonate won't make slime. Apparently people tried it and it didn't work: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ask/questions/Tx1TKCD5286J7B5/ref=ask_ql_ql_al_hza

Alternatively, turn some of the supposed borax into boric acid and use it to color a flame green; with sesquicarbonate, there won't be any green.

Borax Substitute 500g - Dri Pak

Borax Substitute is a mineral compound with the perfect pH for cleaning and is gentler than Soda Crystals yet stronger than Bicarbonate of Soda.500g...

www.spiritofnature.co.uk

See the question for a report of a substitute manufacturer Dri-Pak, the substitute "doesn't make slime very well".

To do the flame test you refer to it is needed to buy hydrochloric acid and methanol, it would be cheaper to buy fresh borax from a photochemical supplier.

 

[koraks]

it would be cheaper to buy fresh borax from a photochemical supplier.

That, or just go by what the manufacturer puts on the box. They generally have very little reason to lie about the contents when it comes to a product like this. If the box says it contains sodium tetraborate, I'd happily accept that that's what it is. If the box says "borax substitute", I wouldn't have much of an inclination to verify it and instead just move on.

 

[reddesert]

Genuine Borax is a bit difficult to source by amateurs in Great Britain.
There is plenty of Substitute Borax available but it's no use for developers.


Apart from trusting the label on the packet, how do I identify genuine from substitute ?

Manufacturers have little incentive to mislabel a chemical compared to the risks - at least in the US, it would probably be illegal to. (For poison-control type reasons if nothing else.) Have you, for example, looked at the manufacturer's website? In the US, the brand of borax that is most common in stores is "20 Mule Team Laundry," and on their website, it says multiple times that it's sodium tetraborate.

 

[pentaxuser]

So do we know for certain that sodium sesquicarbonate will definitely not work in developers or is it that we are just únsure? I can't work out which it is. I ask because from a similar question on another forum borax may becoming harder to get. In which case a substitute such as sodium sesquicarbonate may be an alternative or not depending on whether it works

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

Sodium sesquicarbonate is NOT a drop-in substitute for borax in photographic developers.

Sesquicarbonate should work as an activator, but since it essentially forms a equimolar carbonate-bicarbonate buffer, the pH (on its own, without other acids or bases present) will be around 9.95. A typical borax buffer will be around 8.5 and e.g. in XTOL it's set to 8.2. This means if you were to substitute sodium sesquicarbonate for borax in a developer, you will most likely end up with a vastly more active developer. This means your film will come out overcooked, you have to re-determine correct development times and the end result may be different (e.g. grainier) as you're essentially working with a different developer than intended.

A carbonate/bicarbonate buffer cannot be set to the pH range for which borax is typically used since the entire useful buffer range of carbonate/bicarbonate is above the upper useful limit of the borate/boric acid buffer range.

Borax continues to be sold as it's a generic chemical; the main restrictions we're currently seeing is it being replaced by alternatives in household applications for fear of the health implications associated with borax (which are debatable, btw). Any retailer specializing in chemistry, especially photochemistry, will be able to sell it. AFAIK there is no legislation in place or in preparation that bars consumers from purchasing borax. The replacement of borax seems to be aimed mostly at limiting/preventing non-intentional exposure by the unassuming public.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Geoffrey Crawley wrote (Amateur Photographer 17 Feb 07):
"The sharpness of FX-37 is a result of the combination of borax and carbonate as alkalis.The carbonate just beefs up the natural softness given by borax without a noticeable increase in grain.That is assisted by the milder solvent effect of the reduced sulphite content compared to a D-76 type developer"
So it does appear that a developer of this type could be made using sodium sesquicarbonate buffer.

 

[koraks]

You'd still have to add borax to it the way I read it. And compensate for the bicarbonate.

Why bother?

 

[Alan Johnson]

No borax is needed, the pH of FX37 working solution is around 10,which is the same as borax substitute. Borax pH 9.2, Substitute 10, Metaborate 11 Carbonate 11.6 approx. It is not the intention to produce an exact clone, just pointing out that the substitute has never been investigated but can easily be purchased in shops.

 

[pentaxuser]

Sodium sesquicarbonate is NOT a drop-in substitute for borax in photographic developers.

Sesquicarbonate should work as an activator, but since it essentially forms a equimolar carbonate-bicarbonate buffer, the pH (on its own, without other acids or bases present) will be around 9.95. A typical borax buffer will be around 8.5 and e.g. in XTOL it's set to 8.2. This means if you were to substitute sodium sesquicarbonate for borax in a developer, you will most likely end up with a vastly more active developer. This means your film will come out overcooked, you have to re-determine correct development times and the end result may be different (e.g. grainier) as you're essentially working with a different developer than intended.

A carbonate/bicarbonate buffer cannot be set to the pH range for which borax is typically used since the entire useful buffer range of carbonate/bicarbonate is above the upper useful limit of the borate/boric acid buffer range.

Borax continues to be sold as it's a generic chemical; the main restrictions we're currently seeing is it being replaced by alternatives in household applications for fear of the health implications associated with borax (which are debatable, btw). Any retailer specializing in chemistry, especially photochemistry, will be able to sell it. AFAIK there is no legislation in place or in preparation that bars consumers from purchasing borax. The replacement of borax seems to be aimed mostly at limiting/preventing non-intentional exposure by the unassuming public.

Thanks That clears matter up I have just looked up some Borax stockists and based on those prices what Nik and Trick want for 200g is pretty outrageous at over £19

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

The issue is the EU are trying to ban the use of Borax and Borates.

Ian

 

[BobUK]

The issue is the EU are trying to ban the use of Borax and Borates.

Ian

Would this be a good time to stock up on Boric acid whilst it is still available to the public in Europe?
Even if you do not use it in your photographic chemistry at the moment, it might be handy to have some on the shelf for that formula you might find in the future.


American Preppers stock up on guns, ammunition, long life foods, batteries and medicines.
Me? It's Pyrogallol, Borax, Boric acid, colour film and paper.

 

[Ian Grant]

Well I did stock up on Borax last year when I saw it was being substituted. I used to buy it direct from Consolidated Borax, 4 metric tons at a time, 3 or 4 times a year

I've plenty of Metol, Hydroquinone, Pyrogallol, etc.

Ian

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

The issue is the EU are trying to ban the use of Borax and Borates.

Ian

Is that why it's becoming difficult to buy D76 and ID11? If so, other products will be affected too.

 

[pentaxuser]

The issue is the EU are trying to ban the use of Borax and Borates.

Ian

Unless all the makers of Borax are in the EU, does this matter now for the U.K since we are not in the U.K. any longer?

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

Unless all the makers of Borax are in the EU, does this matter now for the U.K since we are not in the U.K. any longer?

pentaxuser

UK Borax comes from Consolidated Borax (Twenty Mule Team) I setup an account with them for work, in the late 1980swe were buying 4 metric tons 3 or 4 times a year.

Is that why it's becoming difficult to buy D76 and ID11? If so, other products will be affected too.

It maybe. However a Google search "Products" and there are a number of UK sellers at good prices 500g for £10.62

However that seller say: Restricted to Professional Users – A declaration of use will need to be completed and approved prior to shipment of any order placed

Ian

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

There are a number of UK sellers at good prices 500g for £10.62

However that seller say: Restricted to Professional Users – A declaration of use will need to be completed and approved prior to shipment of any order placed

Ian

That makes it difficult for hobbyist to purchase.

Looks like Adox borate-free versions of D76 and ID11 is the way Kodak and Ilford will go eventually.

 

[koraks]

The issue is the EU are trying to ban the use of Borax and Borates.

Standing EU legislation restricts use and sale of borates and requires labeling in accordance with existing unified labeling policies. This doesn't mean it's "banned" in the sense that it's no longer legal to sell or purchase. It may be a little harder to procure for a private consumer, because previously you could just walk into a supermarket and grab it off the shelf. Today, you need to actually find a shop that sells chemistry and purchase it there. I just did a quick search and as a EU citizen I have the choice of a wide range of outlets where I can legally purchase correctly labeled borax. Prices start at a little over €5.50/kg.

It's very well possible that UK legislation is more strict.