generalized exposure discussion

removed account4 · Mar 16, 2015

in another thread making its way through its 5th page
a poster is asking questions about common issues that can happen
when exposing film and developing negatives ...

what is your way you expose a negative.
i know there are as many ways to expose a sheet or roll of film
as there are people with cameras .. but what do YOU do..

do you expose at box speed, ambient meter ( or sunny11 ) ?
do you have your own personal speed tailor made for the way you develop your film ?
do you expose for the shadows and let everything fall into place?
do you expose for the high notes and let everyrthing fall into place?
do you not worry about it and everything seems to work out?
or do you expose every sheet of film, every frame on a roll in a custom way
so you can slide the mid tones up and down the scale and get a negative you want, every time?
or do you rely on the camera's ability to expose the perfect negative ( like the yashica T4 was known to do )

some people spend a short amount of time doing tests, they find what works and don't worry about it
others spend more time doing tests and make their negatives effortlessly (or seemingly so because of experience behind the box or in the dark ) ..
and still others enter into the realm of densitometry and sensitonimetry and make perfect exposures by understanding exactly how everything works at
more of a scientific level ...

what is it that you do ?

Vaughn · Mar 16, 2015

expose at box speed
expose for the shadows and let everything fall into place though tailored development
expose every sheet of film in a custom way to match the printing process to be used with that negative
No formal testing, but I keep notes to give me hints on how to expose and develop the next time. Making prints is my 'testing'.
No densitometry and sensitonimetry stuff...except for just looking at the negative.

Bill Burk · Mar 16, 2015

Sensitometry tells me box speed is trustworthy and gives me personal developing times for desired contrast.

Even without doing sensitometry, you will get acceptable results by trusting box speed and following recommended development times and instructions. (In other words, don't freeze up thinking you have to test before you can begin... Begin first by following instructions. Add sensitometric tests to your darkroom processes as you gain experience and curiosity).

I adjust Exposure Index slightly to allow me to use Zone System parlance when shooting, and I like to place my shadows on Zone II (per Minor White tradition). So I set a 400 speed film at EI 250 on my meter.

If I ever need speed, I know the real speed is 400 so I occasionally set EI 400 for special cases.

I interchangeably use reflective average metering, close-up or spot metering with Zone placement, incident metering. I find (but I don't worry) that there may be a whole f/stop difference in readings between metering methods. I am happy with the results as long as the result is not underexposure.

markbarendt · Mar 16, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
I want bright shadows, dark highlights, and certain mid-tones almost black, with other midtones lighter, and some purple. My exposure system is carefully calibrated for this.

jerrybro · Mar 16, 2015

I expose to retain the shadows and decide if they are important when printing. It's like money, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Rick A · Mar 16, 2015

jerrybro said:
It's like money, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

The same can be said about guns and parachutes.

removed account4 · Mar 16, 2015

thanks for the responses so far !
and michael, THAT was uncalled for

--
the way i do the whole exposure dance is 2 different ways
sometimes, that is if i am being paid to expose,
i expose 1 stop slower than box speed and meter/sunny 11 as normal ..
its processed in dektol 1:8 -9ish for about 8 mins, or sprint as the bottle says ...
but i get kind of bored and can do that for only so long ...
if it is for me, i am using expired film, or a camera with "I" instead of a normal shutter speed
so i sometimes i give a 5 -count exposure no matter the film or camera.
i develop it in both caffenol c and dektol half the time in one then half the time in the other
(mixing all films, all isox for the same time &c )

i don't worry about it and things tend to work out ...

MattKing · Mar 16, 2015

It depends on the camera.

If I am using an in-camera meter, I usually use box speed and make a quick analysis of the predominant "tone" of the scene. Based on that analysis, I use exposure compensation to adjust between that predominant tone and a "grey card" tone.

When using a separate meter, I use it in incident mode usually, although I'll sometimes adjust that too, based on whether the shadows or highlights matter the most.

I shoot roll film, so I rarely adjust development time. But if I do shoot a roll under consistent lighting conditions, I certainly consider adjusting the development to take into account micro-contrast.

palewin · Mar 16, 2015

As someone else posted, it depends on the camera. I shoot HP5+ in all formats, and rate it at 320 versus box speed of 400. With my LeicaM6 or Rollei6006, both of which have built-in meters, I usually trust the camera. I do "fudge" a bit if the scene is clearly not averaging middle grey, for example sno scenes, where I will open up the lens a stop or two from the meter recommendation.

For large format, I use a ZoneVI modified Pentax spot meter. Mostly I use Fred Picker's method of placing bright white (I.e. White with just a touch of texture) on ZoneVIII. But I double check any important shadows, and if they fell below Zone III I open up a bit. If the entire scene is middle grey, I meter a tone I feel should be Zone V or VI and just place it there.

I have adjusted development times to where I can print most of the time around Grade 2 equivalent on VC paper. It turns out that for whatever reason (hard water?) my times are shorter than the standard recommendations for both PMK and Pyrocat-HD, but tray development and agitation requires some printing experience to see where your development times should really be. I also use a ZoneVI compensating development timer, so that my "time" remains constant even if the developer temperature may be higher or lower on any given run.

SLVR · Mar 16, 2015

Box speed usually, I plop my shadows in zone 4 and have a fun time with it.

Ko.Fe. · Mar 16, 2015

Most of the time I use S16, cheap light meter (L-208) and free app in the iPhone to determine exposure. I rarely use my two SLRs with build-in meters, don't like SLRs.
But I liked XA (which quit on me) for quick snapshots, going to try Minox 35 as everyday pocket camera.

Color negative at the nominal speed.
Old films slightly less.
I like 400 film as 200 under bright light.
I push 400 film to 800 and 1600 sometimes is light is too low for entire roll.
Prefer to use 100 film as 100.
I use Polypan F @100 all the time

M Carter · Mar 16, 2015

I'm trying to get my roll-film use down to one or two films, for a fashiony-artsy project that may span the next year or so. So my look had deep shadows where I want plenty of detail. As someone said a few posts up, I'd rather have more detail (that I can crush back down if not needed) than be fighting to hold almost non-existent shadows.

That said, I've found box speed to be a killer for my work. I'm using HP5+ at around 250-320, and Ilford 3200 at around 2000-2500. Sometimes as low as 1600. For my specific needs and final-print desires, anyway.

Modern black and white film can hold a surprising range of tones, far more than paper can display - and my experience is it's easier to hold good highlight detail than shadow detail. But you really have to dial in you own developing process and exposure for the way you shoot and what your own eye wants to see on a dried final print. I used to kind of laugh off the guys with their involved testing schemes, but too much wasted time and paper in the darkroom (and some serious frustration) led me to do some simple testing, and it really pays off. It kinda separates the men from the boys, to be non-pc, and it will up your B&W game big time for a tiny investment in time and film.

There's a thread going around here where I described a 1-roll test that allows you to test four to six brackets of four frames each, in any dev combo you choose - four to six completely independent tests with one roll and a few CC of developer. Pretty cool way to spend an afternoon and you'll learn a lot from it.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 16, 2015

I usually expose at box speed. I assume that manufacturers like Ilford and Kodak know the speed of their films better than anybody else. I have several cameras with excellent built-in meters and find no problem in doing this. The one exception that I have is with Ilford Pan-F which I find too contrasty at its box speed of ISO 50. I usually use an EI of 32 to 40 and develop in D-23 1+1. I stick with HC-110, D-23 or a rordinal type developer rather than one of the multitudinous home-brews of dubious virtue.

pdeeh · Mar 16, 2015

I'm not in search of the "perfect" negative or indeed of some sort of perfect "fine print". I'm even happy to leave my dust-spots unspotted (that'll raise a few hackles on the necks of the Zealots)

I've given up seeking out what other people do or following fads or creating my own false-belief-system about development and whatnot. There are plenty of fantasists and faddists in photography without my adding to their numbers.

For ordinary film in whatever format I shoot at box speed and develop in D23 1:1 for just about everything, unless I want to push a bit in which case I use Caffenol. For no other reason than I got the times right for the latter a couple of years ago and see no reason to change. Sometimes I'll use Rodinal if the bottle is looking at me with a particularly neglected expression.

I mostly use cameras with meters and I seem to get good enough exposures from them. My simplest aperture-priority-no-override cameras (two XAs) give me a higher proportion of well exposed "keepers" than all my other cameras put together.

If I am shooting with LF paper negatives, I'll usually meter by hand, reflective or incident dependent on the subject, and bracket a bit if I have been bothered to carry enough loaded holders; If I am shooting film in a camera without a meter, I generally meter some shadows with my Digisix as I go out and set the speed and aperture accordingly. If the sun comes out (or goes in) I'll subtract or add a stop or two.

A beginner can make good enough negatives and then make a good enough print from them simply by exposing the film as per the instructions printed on the inside of the film box, mixing any chemicals according to the packet they come in, and making the print following what it says in half a page of leaflet.

The blessed Roger Hicks wrote something I like to remember ... "Photography sometimes attracts people with a very high opinion of their own expertise, and a predilection for bossing others about. Listen to some of them, and you will be amazed that silver halide photography ever succeeded at all, given that it is so difficult, complicated, and expensive. Except it isn't."

Or, at least, it isn't unless you want to make it so.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 16, 2015

I expose at my customized film speedwith shadows at Zone IV and Nor N-1 development;printing is controlled with a densitometer to get Zone II shadows at 1.89 and Zone VIII highlights at 0.09;my typical gradient is 0.62.I like it as scientific as I can understand it.

cliveh · Mar 16, 2015

jnanian;1953719317 some people spend a short amount of time doing tests said:
Can I change that to some people spend a lot of time and if so I fit into that category.

M Carter · Mar 16, 2015

pdeeh said:
I'm not in search of the "perfect" negative or indeed of some sort of perfect "fine print". I'm even happy to leave my dust-spots unspotted (that'll raise a few hackles on the necks of the Zealots)... snip snip... A beginner can make good enough negatives and then make a good enough print from them simply by exposing the film as per the instructions printed on the inside of the film box, mixing any chemicals according to the packet they come in, and making the print following what it says in half a page of leaflet.

There's no right way to do this. Thousands of people are making images with the exact same handful of film, paper and chemistry available today, and are doing work from poor to amazing, regardless of process (though it's safe to say that getting deeper into things like testing may up the odds of getting closer to the "amazing" side of the scale. May, no guarantees). The main thing is "do you enjoy it?" If testing is a buzzkill, for heaven's sake, don't test.

Still, myself (and many, many others) have found (for instance) the box-speed to be rather optimistic in many cases, and giving a little more exposure will make "do you enjoy it?" become a little less of a crap shoot. Testing isn't necessarily zealotry... there are many things in life (playing an instrument, woodworking, gardening, golf, running, career-related things) that are enjoyable, and often we reach a point where we realize we could be a little better at it, have more fun with it, or even make a few bucks on the side with it (not to mention make a career).

Those are often the times for digging a little deeper into the processes or tools or techniques of whatever it is you're up to. Nobody's insisting, but when folks post here that they're getting to a point where they want a little more from their end results... testing is often the next step.

Jeff Bradford · Mar 16, 2015

7 1/2 minutes in HC-110, dilution E. I just work everything backwards from there and bracket my exposures. Consistency in developing is difficult enough to maintain, so I'd rather play with the exposure and dial it in. It helps that I mostly shoot 400TX at box speed or just over.

bdial · Mar 16, 2015

Most of the time I pick out the area that I'd like to render at middle grey and meter that at box speed. If I'm using a handheld meter then I usually do an incident reading.
I adjust from that if conditions or instinct say I should.
I've also done testing to verify that using box speed is realistic.

pdeeh · Mar 16, 2015

M Carter said:
. Snip snip snippety snip Testing isn't necessarily zealotry... Snip snip snippety snip

I think you are doing two things, one is that you are making a great many unwarranted assumptions about what I believe and misinterpreting what I'm saying ... The second is that I believe you are using the word "we" when you are really trying to say "I".

Test away, I'm very happy for you to test, or for anybody to test. Knock, as they say, yourself out ... I've done all the testing I want to for the time being though, and by doing so I've established what I describe as my own process.

Doing a load more, however, will not make me a more refined photographer nor will it make my images any more compelling ( or indeed, boring)

Gerald C Koch · Mar 16, 2015

Box speed is determined by what the average user will need for an average scene. If you shoot a variety of subjects in a variety of lighting conditions then box speed is what to use. The term box speed has taken on a somewhat pejorative connotation. That is the user is not being "professional." That in order to be a really good photographer one needs to test every film used for its "true" speed. I find this idea rather pernicious in that it detracts from photography's true purpose which is the taking of photographs. Let's put that idea to rest here. The famous portraitist G. Paul Bishop, Sr made a point of stating that he always used box speed.

I might also add that if you think you need a special EI then you need to really test your method first. Inaccurate meters, thermometers, etc or choice of developer may be the cause rather than the film. In a curious turnaround using box speed tests your method.

gzinsel · Mar 16, 2015

currently, I am using Agfa aviphot 200, i expose @100 and dev. in pyro-cat HD, 1:200 semi- stand for about 25 min. I usually pace my shadows in zone III, develop accordingly to highlights @ 1.30 density. so add or subtract time depending on light. For studio work. i use the same: film rate at 1 stop below box speed, I use incident light metering with strobes and develop for about the same. Nothin' new here. same ol', same ol'

markbarendt · Mar 16, 2015

Box speed is always my reference point.

Incident meter to set exposure and follow the instructions for normal box speed to develop. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

removed account4 · Mar 16, 2015

cliveh said:
Can I change that to some people spend a lot of time and if so I fit into that category.

yep its fine with me, a lot of time, a little time whatever works, ... works ( i didn't mean to leave people out
but as i said for every person there is a different methodology ) ..

john

BrianShaw · Mar 16, 2015

Almost always box speed and a meter - I must not be a very good photographer. Ha ha ha

generalized exposure discussion

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