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Kirks518

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These are some questions that I've had about developing, but just haven't found concise and accurate answers. I know the answers are out there, but finding them in one place seems to be difficult.

It should be assumed that all questions are using one type of (fresh) film at rated box speed, and one developer at any one of the given mix ratios (fresh batch). Ie, an answer shouldn't be: "use Developer X or Film Y to achieve that", but altering the developer in a specific way could be a response: "Use a lower dilution strength".

All questions assume a correctly exposed (in camera) negative. This is specifically about what the differences in developing processes will result in.

I would guess there may be multiple answers to some of the questions, if there are, please give the multiple answers.

If you have questions you would like to add, please feel free.


So if you can, please answer the following:

1. Developing for times longer than recommended, results in _________________.

2. Developing for less time than recommend, results in ________________.

3. Increased contrast in a negative is achieved by _______________.

4. Decreased contrast in a negative is achieved by _______________.

5. You can increase apparent grain by _______________.

6. You can decrease apparent grain by ___________________.

7. My (properly exposed) negatives were really dense. Next time I should ________ my developing time.

8. My (properly exposed) negatives were really thin. Next time I should __________ my developing time.

9. Too vigorous agitation can/will result in _________.

10. Too whimpy agitation can/will result in _________.

11. Agitation at intervals more frequently than recommended would result in ___________.

12. Agitation at intervals less frequently than recommended would result in ____________.


Thanks. I'm hoping this will help not only me, but others that are 'new' to developing.
 

M Carter

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I suggest this a lot, but if you want to learn to dial in your B&W exposure and processing, get a copy of "way beyond monochrome" (and you'll also dial in your printing and learn to finesse prints like crazy).

The film & dev section has test procedures from simple to brain-aching complexity that requires a densitometer and a spreadsheet. But there's plenty in there that will give you some quick ideas to get your own personal film & dev combos down. And the sections on printing, split-filter printing, flashing, bleaching, toning, spotting, matting... really, if you're into this stuff, you can't put it down.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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I guess I made it sound like these are all questions I have, but really what I was hoping to accomplish was to have one spot for folks new to developing to go to for a quick reference. The questions above were some that I had when I first started developing, but I was unable to find the answers in one spot. Lots of googling and lots of link-clicking, and I found the answers to most. Things like the Kodak Pub O3 didn't come up in those searches, and can be helpful, but there a lots of questions that newbies have that the answers are very difficult to find.

It was intended to be more of a reference knowledge base from folks who have been doing it for years in an effort to help newer folks find answers to their questions. Or kind of a troubleshooting page (much like some of Pub O3).

I've only been developing for about a year, and I don't always know the answer to "If I do X, Y will happen". I know it's an experience thing, but I was hoping something like this would short-cut some of that experience time.
 

Bill Burk

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Here are some of my thoughts...


1. Developing for times longer than recommended, results in _______ [ Increased gamma/Contrast Index, "N+" developing in Zone System parlance = expansion such as moving Zone VI to Zone VII ] __________.

2. Developing for less time than recommend, results in ______[ Decreased gamma / Contrast Index, "N-" developing in Zone System parlance = contraction such as moving Zone IX to Zone VIII. Less than 4 minutes may lead to uneven developing ] __________.

3. Increased contrast in a negative is achieved by ________[ Developing longer ]_______.

4. Decreased contrast in a negative is achieved by _____[ Developing less ]__________.

5. You can increase apparent grain by _______[ Shooting smaller film, such as half-frame ]________.

6. You can decrease apparent grain by _______[ Shooting larger film such as 4x5 ]____________.

7. My (properly exposed) negatives were really dense. Next time I should ___[*Trick question, may be correct exposure and development ]_____ my developing time.

8. My (properly exposed) negatives were really thin. Next time I should _____[*Trick question, may be underexposed no matter what you think ]_____ my developing time.

9. Too vigorous agitation can/will result in ___[ Surge marks ]______.

10. Too whimpy agitation can/will result in ____[ Bromide drag ]_____.

11. Agitation at intervals more frequently than recommended would result in _____[ *Another trick question... Better agitation ]______.

12. Agitation at intervals less frequently than recommended would result in ____[*Another trick question... You might forget to agitate once in a while leading to even less agitation ]________.


 

Gerald C Koch

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By its very nature the internet is geared to answering individual and specific questions. Photography is a complex and at times difficult art. Books on the subject run to hundred of pages. Therefore you are not going to find a useful tutorial on the net. There are quite a few good books that are available. I first learned from books published by Kodak that were very good and then from the Ansel Adams series. The Negative and The Print are the most useful. Many books are available used so there is not a great monetary expenditure.
 

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I agree w/ Gerald. Someone needs to walk before they can run. They need to read up on what is actually going on w/ the film, from exposure to print, and then many of your questions will be answered (but only in theory, someone still needs to actually develop the negs and print them to have any actual, REAL knowledge of photography). The books mentioned above were a great help to me in the beginning, but there's nothing like getting your hands in the chemicals to actually learn things. It's the only way, actually.

Besides, different developers will have different protocols, and one set of "rules" from one developer may be of little help w/ another. This may sound a little crazy, but I have had results recently wherein my shots looked lousy w/ a particular developer, but switching to another camera and lens gave me totally different results that I very much liked, using exactly the same developer from the same bottle. Why? I'm not sure, and really don't much care why. All I know is that it worked. Experimenting is part of the process, and the fun.
 
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snapguy

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McWow

If I buy a sandwich and it tastes lousy why is that? What I am trying to say is the answers to your questions are very complicated depending on many factors. What kind of sandwich? How did it taste that was lousy? Did you eat it right away or leave it overnight in the glove department of your car?
 

removed account4

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hi OP

at the risk of sounding like a jerk ...

buy a bulk loader, and 100 feet of film
and a few spools ...
expose a bunch of short ( maybe 12 exposure rolls BRACKETED )
and develop them all in your favorite developer.

change your development time, dilution agitation and developer temperature
and you will find hte answers to all your questions.

it is virtually impossible to answer most or all of your quesions as an ignoralt bystander
because no one here agitates the same as you, no one mixes chemistry the same as you, or uses
your metering / exposure system. a bulk roll is cheap so are bulk 100 rolls ...

good luck !
john
 
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Kirks518

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I guess this is why analog photography is a dying art. Getting help from folks is like pulling teeth.

If I was just starting out developing, and wanted to know why my negatives came out overly grainy, or very dense, or too thin, I would hope I could get an educated answer/guess that would lead me in a direction that would help. Sure, reading books would give a person the answers, but seriously, in this day and age with the internet at our beck and call, how many under 30's are going to read a technical manual about developing film, when all they want to know is what they may have done wrong, and go from there.

Here's an example of what I was hoping for, but obviously won't get:

1. Developing for times longer than recommended, results in denser negatives, and increase in grain, and a loss of shadow detail. (Among other things)

But I guess all those with experience want to keep those things secret so the fine art of film developing dies when they do.


 

markbarendt

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1. Developing for times longer than recommended, results in _________________.
Steeper film curve, AKA plus or push development.
Normally only relevant when matched to a fixed printing situation, i.e. printing to grade 2 paper. (Digitized work is not fixed.)

2. Developing for less time than recommend, results in ________________.
Flatter film curve, AKA minus or pull development.
Normally only relevant when matched to a fixed printing situation, i.e. printing to grade 2 paper. (Digitized work is not fixed.)

3. Increased contrast in a negative is achieved by _______________.
More agitation, higher temperature, more concentrated developing mix, more developing time, or any combination thereof.

4. Decreased contrast in a negative is achieved by _______________.
Opposite of last answer.

5. You can increase apparent grain by _______________.
Using faster film.

6. You can decrease apparent grain by ___________________.
Using slower film.

(There are other answers to the last two but the other answers are less reliable at best.)

7. My (properly exposed) negatives were really dense. Next time I should ________ my developing time.
Not change.
Only change developing time after printing, if they will print well on your chosen paper grade they are developed correctly, period.
If you followed the developing instructions well, it is much more likely you simply had more exposure at the camera than you thought.
If you didn't print them go now and print them.

8. My (properly exposed) negatives were really thin. Next time I should __________ my developing time.
See last question.
If you have followed all the developing instructions and warnings properly and the negatives are still too thin to print well the problem is exposure.
If you didn't print them go now and print them.

(On the last two do not mistake the need for burning and dodging with development issues. Adjusting development is about making the contrast rate look right, burn and dodge are about the relationship, relative luminance, of differing subjects on the paper.

9. Too vigorous agitation can/will result in _________.
More development.

10. Too whimpy agitation can/will result in _________.
Opposite of last answer. (Seeing a trend here? :wink: )

11. Agitation at intervals more frequently than recommended would result in ___________.
See vigorous above.

12. Agitation at intervals less frequently than recommended would result in ____________.
See wimpy above.
 

snapguy

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rong

The alleged answers to #1 could be 100 percent wrong. For instance, if you badly underexpose, overdeveloping might be a very good thing. In today's world everyone wants instant answers. Nobody wants to learn their craft. What a horrible idea indeed. If we wanted to keep everything a secret we would give you more fake answers that would really screw up your negs. And we would NEVER suggest that you actually crack a book and read up on the subject.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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The alleged answers to #1 could be 100 percent wrong. For instance, if you badly underexpose, overdeveloping might be a very good thing. In today's world everyone wants instant answers. Nobody wants to learn their craft. What a horrible idea indeed. If we wanted to keep everything a secret we would give you more fake answers that would really screw up your negs. And we would NEVER suggest that you actually crack a book and read up on the subject.


First of all, it's spelled WRONG :wink:

Second, as I stated in the first post, the questions were posed with the assumption of correct in-camera exposure. I was hoping for a one-stop-shop for new folks to find potential answers for their developing questions and problems.

Thank you to markbarendt!!!! No, his answers aren't the end-all know-all of all the possibilities out there, but they give people a starting point.

And I do apologize, I re-read my original post, and I wasn't clear in that I wasn't asking the questions for myself, as I found most (all?) of the answers over the last year, but thought it would be good to compile a list of questions that may help others. Most of the answers that I learned in the last year I got from all of you folks here at APUG. Thing is, it was numerous posts/threads I had to make to get or find those answers. I'm not 100%, but I don't think I'll be the last person to ever have those questions, but my hope is that the next guy and finds this thread (and has the patience through to get to Mark's post), and he'll have some ideas as to what went wrong, or what would happen if he did this instead of that.

:smile:
 

Gerald C Koch

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I guess this is why analog photography is a dying art. Getting help from folks is like pulling teeth.

If I was just starting out developing, and wanted to know why my negatives came out overly grainy, or very dense, or too thin, I would hope I could get an educated answer/guess that would lead me in a direction that would help. Sure, reading books would give a person the answers, but seriously, in this day and age with the internet at our beck and call, how many under 30's are going to read a technical manual about developing film, when all they want to know is what they may have done wrong, and go from there.

What you want is the equivalent of "teaching to the test." Regrettably that is not the way to become proficient in an art such as photography or for that matter anything else.
 

M Carter

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I guess this is why analog photography is a dying art. Getting help from folks is like pulling teeth.

If I was just starting out developing, and wanted to know why my negatives came out overly grainy, or very dense, or too thin, I would hope I could get an educated answer/guess that would lead me in a direction that would help. Sure, reading books would give a person the answers, but seriously, in this day and age with the internet at our beck and call, how many under 30's are going to read a technical manual about developing film, when all they want to know is what they may have done wrong, and go from there.

Here's an example of what I was hoping for, but obviously won't get:

1. Developing for times longer than recommended, results in denser negatives, and increase in grain, and a loss of shadow detail. (Among other things)

But I guess all those with experience want to keep those things secret so the fine art of film developing dies when they do.

Well, I've had a few cocktails tonight (Being a "regular" at the dive bar means your drinks are pretty, umm, "dense". But they're "well-agitated"). But here goes...

This may be the most "my panties are all wadded up" "my butt hurts" post I've seen on APUG.

You want some sort of holy grail of developing info - you got a very wide range of responses. Because THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER except the answers you find to how you shoot, and how you want your negs and your prints to look.

I posted earlier on this thread to get a copy of a specific book and look into their testing methodology. Others posted... well, all kinds of stuff. And your response is that we're all hiding our vast knowledge from you.

"Getting help from us is like pulling teeth"?? We are all here, helping each other. I have all my teeth and I posted what I thought would help. But... LEARN HOW TO TEST YOUR FILM and find the ISO that works for the developer you want to work with. Scroll up a few threads and consider the book that I suggested, which would not only up your game for exposure and developing, but for printing as well.

I'm not some WWII veteran "get off my lawn" kinda old fart. Hell, I play guitar in a punk band and my alter-ego is a British punk rocker. I sing harmonies on "I HAVE A CRAMP IN MY PANCREAS" for christ's sake. And you're making me feel like "kids today - what pussies!!!"

WE CAN'T ANSWER ALL OF THIS STUFF - there are a million opinions about "what agitation does". And only a small percentage will fit what you want your film to look like, under the conditions you shoot and your gear and your film and your developer and what looks like a kickass final print to you. This shit is magic, it's personal, it's ghost-in-the-machine. Think about that - GHOST IN THE MACHINE - chemistry and mechanical shutters and emulsions and everyone does something radically different with THE SAME DAMNED STUFF. That's why this isn't the "What's the highest megapixel digital camera" forum. And it's whay there are no super-easy answers. And yet there are a couple paragraphs in "way Beyond Monochrome" that will boost your negative quality with a minute's thought.

After decades of shooting commercial color product photography that YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN in billboards and catalogs and ads, this forum has helped me becomes ten times the B&W shooter I ever thought I could be. Don't go dissing these awesome, good people (OK, there may be a jerk or two around here, god love 'em). Get your damn humble on and realize... this is school, and there are some good teachers here - but in this digital age, you gotta teach yourself, too.

Sincerely, Dikkie Smythe.
Lead guitarist for Sammee Skumn
(The epic punk band from Pudley-on-Thames, England)(But we moved to Thames-on-Pudley when the punk scene exploded there)

[video=youtube;4w5uy2nd_6Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w5uy2nd_6Q[/video]
 

Gerald C Koch

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The problem with getting all of ones answers from the internet is that it is predicated on asking the right questions. Then there is the problem of knowing what is right information and utter crap. Both problems require some prior knowledge. Whatever is wrong with reading a book? You may not only find the answer to your question but hosts of other information. But then books are so, ... so analog.
 

MattKing

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I can tell that the OP is frustrated by the responses to this thread, and I sympathize, but the problem is with the questions themselves.

Some of those questions can be answered simply. In other cases, the questions include some implied assumptions, and in a couple of cases, those assumptions may very well be wrong.

In addition, some of the nomenclature may be confusing.

You might have more success if your questions started out with a situation and a combination of materials and techniques that yielded a good result, and then asked what the affect would be if a certain change happened.

As an example: A medium speed, medium contrast negative film was used to take a photo of a scene of average contrast, and that film was developed for the recommended time, in a standard, moderate solvent developer, using standard agitation, yielding a negative of good contrast which exhibited good shadow detail, and moderate to fine grain.

How would the resulting negative differ (if at all) if:

1) the developing time was extended by 20%;
2) the developing time was decreased by 20%;
3) the temperature was increased by 3F;
4) the developer was replaced by Rodinal;

etc., etc.
 
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Kirks518

Kirks518

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Well, I've had a few cocktails tonight (Being a "regular" at the dive bar means your drinks are pretty, umm, "dense". But they're "well-agitated"). But here goes...

This may be the most "my panties are all wadded up" "my butt hurts" post I've seen on APUG.

You want some sort of holy grail of developing info - you got a very wide range of responses. Because THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER except the answers you find to how you shoot, and how you want your negs and your prints to look.

I posted earlier on this thread to get a copy of a specific book and look into their testing methodology. Others posted... well, all kinds of stuff. And your response is that we're all hiding our vast knowledge from you.

"Getting help from us is like pulling teeth"?? We are all here, helping each other. I have all my teeth and I posted what I thought would help. But... LEARN HOW TO TEST YOUR FILM and find the ISO that works for the developer you want to work with. Scroll up a few threads and consider the book that I suggested, which would not only up your game for exposure and developing, but for printing as well.

I'm not some WWII veteran "get off my lawn" kinda old fart. Hell, I play guitar in a punk band and my alter-ego is a British punk rocker. I sing harmonies on "I HAVE A CRAMP IN MY PANCREAS" for christ's sake. And you're making me feel like "kids today - what pussies!!!"

WE CAN'T ANSWER ALL OF THIS STUFF - there are a million opinions about "what agitation does". And only a small percentage will fit what you want your film to look like, under the conditions you shoot and your gear and your film and your developer and what looks like a kickass final print to you. This shit is magic, it's personal, it's ghost-in-the-machine. Think about that - GHOST IN THE MACHINE - chemistry and mechanical shutters and emulsions and everyone does something radically different with THE SAME DAMNED STUFF. That's why this isn't the "What's the highest megapixel digital camera" forum. And it's whay there are no super-easy answers. And yet there are a couple paragraphs in "way Beyond Monochrome" that will boost your negative quality with a minute's thought.

After decades of shooting commercial color product photography that YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN in billboards and catalogs and ads, this forum has helped me becomes ten times the B&W shooter I ever thought I could be. Don't go dissing these awesome, good people (OK, there may be a jerk or two around here, god love 'em). Get your damn humble on and realize... this is school, and there are some good teachers here - but in this digital age, you gotta teach yourself, too.

Sincerely, Dikkie Smythe.
Lead guitarist for Sammee Skumn
(The epic punk band from Pudley-on-Thames, England)(But we moved to Thames-on-Pudley when the punk scene exploded there)

[video=youtube;4w5uy2nd_6Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w5uy2nd_6Q[/video]

Yeah, my panties have been wadded up, but it's because I'm asking for simple answers to questions that I firmly believe everyone with some experience developing B&W can give a reasonable answer to. No, I'm not expecting a prophecy on B&W developing, but let me ask it this way:

You have always developed film A, with developer B, for X length of time, with Y agitations for Z period of time, and have been happy with the results.

Now, what will happen if one of the variables (X, Y, or Z) (film and developer are the constants) is altered in some way? If A, B, Y, and Z are left the way you've always done it, but change X, what changes could result? Yes, there is (or can be) more then one answer, but having those answer can help someone figure out a cause for a problem they may be having.

In other words, let's say a roll you developed showed more grain then you usually get, or that is normal/expected with that film and developer. Some variable must have changed to cause the increase in grain. Well, it's the same film we used last week, and it's the same type of developer, so what is the most like culprit(s) that could have caused the increase in grain? I have a feeling that if I called up my old high school photo teacher, he would say something to the effect of "most typically, increased grain is caused by 'variable 1' or 'variable 2'.". Then I would at least have an idea of where the screw up happened.

Doesn't even have to be a screw up. Could just be 'I want more/less contrast/grain/etc. from this roll, what do I alter?'

I think Matt understands what I'm trying to get across, and he presented it in a better format. I just thought a troubleshooting list for developing could be helpful. I guess I was wrong.
 

markbarendt

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the questions were posed with the assumption of correct in-camera exposure.

Thank you for your compliment.

I do though want to point out one of the problems with compiling and answering lists like this; the assumptions.

For example, there is no single exact/correct/perfect/right in-camera "exposure" mandated or implied by the film itself. Negative films have a wide range of possible exposure values that can result in high quality print.

Negatives are an intermediate medium, they are just data storage devices and manipulation of that data (burn, dodge, and base exposure changes for example) is an intrinsic part of getting the print one wants.

The concept of, or belief in "a universal camera exposure setting standard that is best for all" is generally rooted in: A) slide film shooting and other direct to positive situations like casual polaroid or digital shooting; or B) in following human simplifications of the science, like the zone system.

I'm not saying it's not good to be consistent in how one shoots, there are real advantages in being exacting about ones work. What I'm saying is that my standard and John's and Bill's standards are all different. John may not be happy with negatives that aren't 3-4 stops denser than Bill's, I'm happy from 1-under to 3-over. All 3 of our exposure settings are "right" because we are all within the usable range of the film.
 

MattKing

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I think Matt understands what I'm trying to get across, and he presented it in a better format. I just thought a troubleshooting list for developing could be helpful. I guess I was wrong.

You aren't wrong. It is just that it isn't all that simple to construct such a list.

The difference between what you started with, and what I was trying to suggest, is that there are a whole bunch of variables outside the development process that affect the variables within the development process.

If you pin more things down in the first place, you can more effectively discuss the affect of variations in the development process.

As an example, just varying the lighting conditions in the scene can affect the apparent graininess of the prints. So if you specify "diffused" lighting, you eliminate that variable from the analysis.
 
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Yeah, my panties have been wadded up, but it's because I'm asking for simple answers to questions that I firmly believe everyone with some experience developing B&W can give a reasonable answer to. No, I'm not expecting a prophecy on B&W developing, but let me ask it this way:

You have always developed film A, with developer B, for X length of time, with Y agitations for Z period of time, and have been happy with the results.

Now, what will happen if one of the variables (X, Y, or Z) (film and developer are the constants) is altered in some way? If A, B, Y, and Z are left the way you've always done it, but change X, what changes could result? Yes, there is (or can be) more then one answer, but having those answer can help someone figure out a cause for a problem they may be having.

In other words, let's say a roll you developed showed more grain then you usually get, or that is normal/expected with that film and developer. Some variable must have changed to cause the increase in grain. Well, it's the same film we used last week, and it's the same type of developer, so what is the most like culprit(s) that could have caused the increase in grain? I have a feeling that if I called up my old high school photo teacher, he would say something to the effect of "most typically, increased grain is caused by 'variable 1' or 'variable 2'.". Then I would at least have an idea of where the screw up happened.

Doesn't even have to be a screw up. Could just be 'I want more/less contrast/grain/etc. from this roll, what do I alter?'

I think Matt understands what I'm trying to get across, and he presented it in a better format. I just thought a troubleshooting list for developing could be helpful. I guess I was wrong.

Okay, here goes...

Part of your problem getting answers to your questions is that the answers you are looking for are over-simplifications to a very complex system of interrelationships between film, exposure, development, processing techniques, etc., etc. If you Google on "photographic tone reproduction," "sensitometry," or even "Zone System," you'll see just how huge the bodies of literature are for these areas. It just isn't as simple as you want it to be.

Second, your questions are based on premises that are often not accurate or concepts that are fuzzy. An example of the first is "correctly exposed" (Mark addressed this well above). An example of the second is "contrast," which I'll address now:

The term contrast is used commonly to describe a number of different things in photography. Among these are: subject brightness (or luminance) range, the total density range from film-base-plus-fog to the densest part of a negative, the contrast gradient (determined by a couple of different methods) to which a negative has been developed to, the contrast gradient of a photo paper, the density range of a print... You get the idea. To expand a bit, though: You might say "increasing development increases contrast," but a sensitometrist would never be so inaccurate. S/he would say that increasing development increases contrast gradient/gamma. And, I can reduce development from "normal" by 50% or more, to what a Zone System practitioner would consider N-3 or N-4, and still end up with a negative with too much overall contrast to print well on grade 2 paper - because the subject brightness range of the scene was too great. Conversely, I can increase development from "normal" and end up with a flat negative that needs a high-contrast paper grade - again, because the subject brightness range was very small.

Oversimplification is a trap and can prevent one from learning the nuances and complexities needed to masterfully practice your craft. While we all need to start somewhere, I really think that what you are trying to do is actually a detriment to those wishing to learn basic black-and-white development techniques. Much faster progress can be achieved by understanding a few basic interrelationships; exposure range to negative density as a function of development for example...

So, in the spirit of avoiding "oversimplification," here are answers to your questions:

1. Developing for times longer than recommended, results in _________________.

Increasing development generally increases the "contrast" of a negative. More specifically, it increases the contrast gradient. Overall contrast is dependent on the relationship between the exposure range on the film and the amount of development. Since "recommended times" are for average scenes, increasing development by a certain amount may give you a negative that is too contrasty to print easily, or it may give you one that is just right, or even one that is too flat. Keep in mind that development can be increased by other means than increasing time. A higher temperature and increased frequency of agitation also increase the rate of development.

2. Developing for less time than recommend, results in ________________.
Decreasing development generally decreases the "contrast" of a negative. Again, we're talking contrast gradient here, not overall contrast, which is dependent as well on the subject brightness range/range of exposure on the negative.

3. Increased contrast in a negative is achieved by _______________.
Here we're getting into "fuzzy-concept territory." If by "contrast" you mean "contrast gradient," then the answer is, "by increasing the development." However, with the same development I can capture various contrast ranges by photographing scenes with different subject brightness ranges... I think you meant the former, but really, your question is not clear.

4. Decreased contrast in a negative is achieved by _______________.
The opposite of the above answer. The same fuzzy-concept problem applies.

5. You can increase apparent grain by _______________.
A false premise underlies this question: I assume you want us to say that more development results in more grain. This simply is not true and has been proven not to be true. Furthermore, graininess is highly subjective. Finally, graininess is mostly a characteristic of the film, and related to film speed. So, one real answer is: If you want more grain, shoot a faster film and enlarge it more. Still that is an oversimplification. Some developers soften the grain by dissolving and redepositing silver (D-76 straight), others do not.

6. You can decrease apparent grain by ___________________.
Of course, this has the same problem as the question above. Larger film, less enlargement, using a silver-solvent developer instead of a non-solvent developer will all reduce the appearance of grain. Changing development times with the same developer will really not do much in this department.

7. My (properly exposed) negatives were really dense. Next time I should ________ my developing time.
Again, you are presuming a scenario. Yes, IF your negatives were well-exposed and they consistently end up with too-high a contrast gradient, you may be overdeveloping. If it's just a one-time thing, then maybe it was a subject with a high luminance range that is the culprit. Generally speaking, however, too-dense negs are more often the result of poor (over-)exposure.

8. My (properly exposed) negatives were really thin. Next time I should __________ my developing time.
And, the opposite of the above: If your negatives are consistently too flat, but you have shadow detail, then you need to increase development time.

9. Too vigorous agitation can/will result in _________.
Increasing agitation will increase the rate of development. This is not in itself a bad thing. Finding an agitation scheme that gives you evenly-developed negatives is the key. Too-vigorous agitation can result in surge marks and areas of increased density where the turbulence is greater. If you have these, you should reduce the vigor of your agitation.

10. Too wimpy agitation can/will result in _________.
Less agitation = slower rate of development. The danger with less-vigorous agitation is uneven development (especially bromide drag), which can be remedied by increasing agitation frequency and/or vigor. Again, finding the right combination is often not easy.

11. Agitation at intervals more frequently than recommended would result in ___________.
...a faster rate of development. If you adjust time accordingly, then there would be no problem assuming you had even development. Constant agitation in rotary processors and trays is the norm.

12. Agitation at intervals less frequently than recommended would result in ____________.
...reduced agitation, which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. There are many who swear by stand or semi-stand development with minimal agitation. Again, time has to be appropriate and finding a scheme that results in even development is not always easy.

Now, change your shorts and get on with things.

Best,

Doremus
 

pdeeh

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I feel your pain, Kirk ...

I do think people are genuinely trying to be helpful, but one problem is that when you ask a bunch of very experienced people a question (or questions), they can't un-remember all their experience, and find it almost impossible to step into the shoes of someone without all that experience.

Hence the answers become overly detailed, as they try to fit in all their background knowledge in an attempt to cover all the possibilities; or they become unhelpfully generalised; or they give up trying to get anything across because it's all too complicated and suggest reading a book or books.

I'm of a "pre-internet" generation so the suggestion to read a book isn't anathema to me, but I also recognise that people acquire knowledge differently in the second decade of the 21st century than they did in the mid-20th, and people anyway don't learn best only by one uniform process (one size does not fit all).

Plus, of course, people will cheerfully make all sorts of false assumptions about why you are asking the questions and completely misunderstand the sort of reply that will be useful to you :smile:

So it's not surprising that threads such as these can become very frustrating for the OP.

Fortunately there are a handful of members who will often "get it" and so offer the kind of response being looked for, so one always just has to hope one's thread will catch the attention of one or more of them.
 

markbarendt

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As an example, just varying the lighting conditions in the scene can affect the apparent graininess of the prints. So if you specify "diffused" lighting, you eliminate that variable from the analysis.

Absolutely.

Another couple things along that line of thought that play with the apparent graininess and grain's acceptability in a given situation are related to the subject matter.

Large areas with little subject texture, like open overcast or solid blue sky can allow grain to become the subject.

Relatively small subjects in a photo (fine details like say jewelry in a portrait) that are important to the photographer/client can end up competing with grain visually.
 

removed account4

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people over complicate things with their technical answers
and forget that sometimes the question asker doesn't want overly technical answers
just a straight and simple answer .. there are other things at play too ..
often times people ask 15 questions, and as snapguy suggested there could be not 15 or 30 answers
but maybe 100 answers because we are not there, or privy to the question asker's methods of exposure
or development or even know if the question asker has created a "personal iso" for his favorite 400 speed film
or if he/she is metering with a camera meter which might be wrong, or the type of lighting or if she/he is using
a vaient of chemistry ( like diluting tmax rs to 1:15 because he /she heard that someone famous does this or
a whole host of other factors that might add into over or under exposed ( looking ) smooth or grainy (looking ) negatives
or if the asker is printing or skanning his/her film &c ...

it is great to ask questions and usually when someone asks a question that seems seemingly simple 30 people give 35 different resons
of why film might look (fill in the blank ) ..
my answer was prefaced with sorry to sound like a jerk because often times people want to get a simple answer
but they have a system that is theirs so no one's answers ( out of the 100 ) will be even close to correct.
a few short rolls bracket exposed and developed in a simple ( like d76, ID11 or sprint or ... ) developer
x% over, x% under x% manufacturer's recommendation
and then either a contact sheet or scanned and lookied at that way will usually answer most questions .
then a few more rolls in varied lighting ( dim, bright, extreme shadow/light in the same frame ) answers the rest of the question.

nothing is better than seeing results with one's own eyes rather than some stranger who might or might not know what is going on
giving information that might or might not be right ...

a bulk roll from photo warehouse from what i remember is pretty cheap canisters are pretty cheap a used bulk lader is like 10$
6 12 frame rolls of film takes very little chemistry ..always seemed like a good solution to learn the ropes to actually learn by doing
rather than not ..

but that is my opinion and often times i am wrong so YMMV

- john
 

markbarendt

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Generally speaking, however, too-dense negs are more often the result of poor (over-)exposure.

I agree.

For the OP though we need to understand the other elephant in room with regard to relative negative density; the dominant subject matter.

Assuming for a moment that an incident meter or well practiced zoning is used to place the camera exposures: a portrait of a stereotypical bride in white on a beach with lots of white puffy clouds behind her should produce a much denser looking negative than a shot of the stereotypical groom laughing with the groomsmen after sunset lit only by Tiki torches.

Both negatives may produce "perfect" prints using the exact same settings and timing to print. The dominant tone in the print of the bride will be very light, the groom shot will print dark,; as they should.
 
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