Geeking out on print longevity

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jtk

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#! fwiw I don't know of a more reliable source than Red River for this kind of information. Do you?
Link if you do know of anything better or forever hold your peace.


#2 nobody (apparently) knows anything about the archival nature of silver/gel or other analog prints made by photo labs OR home fanatics (we've just believed that lots of washing would make prints eternal). Smithsonian makes claims. Do they apply to your silver/gel prints?

#3 those of us who were relatively early adopters of inkjet printing found (from observation) that Epson's 2200 was among the first to closely simulate silver/gel in terms of tonal scale and absolute visual black/white and we've learned that those inkjet prints have seemed perhaps-archival.

Check this out:

 
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Paul Howell

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I have not seen any definitive answers as how either silver/gel, R4, or inkjet will last. Back in the day, 60 and 70s many repeated the claim that a well washed and archival stored print will last 300 years. Neither Kodak or ILford has ever made that claim. For that matter Kodak and ILford do use the term archival, ILford used permeancey. In the 90s Fuji claimed that their R4 papers will last 75years in room light. Dye transfer prints both analog and digital are suppose to last longer, and at one point I recall Epson stating that a inkjet will last 75years, don't know if they have changed that prediction. In terms of silver/gel prints, I have well washed and stored prints made on GAF VC paper and GAF 500 slides that I made in the 70s that are fading.
I did find this old article on Shutterbug.

 

albada

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The link above is broken. Try this one:
 

Mr Bill

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#! fwiw I don't know of a more reliable source than Red River for this kind of information. Do you?
Link if you do know of anything better or forever hold your peace.

Hi, I did read your linked article, which in turn linked (under "Resources") to the "better" sources, in my view. One of them, the Image Permanence Institute, at RIT, apparently does the actual testing for the Red River people. Who in turn give a simplified version of the results, as a "worst case" display lifetime.
#2 nobody (apparently) knows anything about the archival nature of silver/gel or other analog prints made by photo labs OR home fanatics (we've just believed that lots of washing would make prints eternal). Smithsonian makes claims. Do they apply to your silver/gel prints?

I spent a number of years as the QC manager in the processing lab division of a large US studio chain. Our goal was along the lines of best possible quality at a price point, always shooting on the Kodak professional portrait color neg film of the day, printed onto an appropriate professional paper (not necessarily Kodak).

At some point, maybe around 1980, the company realized the possible ramifications of making a bad choice in materials, especially given that we had a 100% satisfaction guaranteed policy. So if we selected a paper with poor longevity it could be a very costly choice. Or even some sort of processing issue that could affect Image stability.

So, under the advice of a guy on the ANSI Image stability committee (name of Henry Wilhelm) we set up an abbreviated image stability testing program. About twice a year we ran a set of tests, for both light AND dark fading. I say abbreviated because a proper dark-fading test would be run at perhaps a half-dozen different temperatures. (This allows predictive time to age.) But given the expense of these temperature and humidity controlled test chambers, we elected to use only one, limiting us to comparative tests, only, with no predictive capabilities.

For more info on the dark-fading test procedures, see Henry Wilhelm's book (free download from his website), p. 177 and 178. Charleston Bard et al of Kodak first published details of this so-called Arrhenius test about 1980.

We also ran a light-fading test at the same time. Again, plenty of detail in Henry's book, see Chapter 3.

Over the years we looked at both dye-sub printers and various inkjet type printers, largely for consideration in studio use. If something was worth looking at we'd print test samples asap in order to get the image stability tests started. They'd take perhaps 4 or 5 months for meaningful results. This would be reading a series of test patches every week or two, depending on the rate of change. One set in the heat chamber, one set in the light chamber, yet another in a file cabinet (as a room temperature reference) plus a master reference, kept frozen. And each new media test would be accompanied by at least one known reference - our current production material.

I realize that this doesn't help the typical photographer, say users of this site. I'm mainly responding to the "nobody knows anything" comment. But it gives people a sense of what might be happening in the processing industry. For a more typical photographer I'd suggest to rely on the vendor of materials that you wanna use. Just ask if they have any image stability data on their materials. Or see if either Wilhelm or Ardenberg has tested same - see their websites. If no tests you're on your own. But... if the vendor has a handful of requests perhaps they'll commission a test from RIT. Who knows? In our case, we mostly stuck with major manufacturers - if something went wrong we wanted the strength of a major manufacturer standing behind us. That is, if THEY supplied defective material then they would be expected to help cover the costs of replacing customer work.

One last comment on light fading... this is such an unpredictable situation. In the case of DARK fading, it's fairly simple to predict for a certain storage temperature (and controlled humidity). But for light fading one may not be able to predict the light levels. In one case perhaps direct sunlight comes through the windows at certain times of the year. Or perhaps contaminants in the air affect the print. So the conditions may be too variable to give a good prediction of print life (however that may be defined).
 
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jtk

jtk

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Hi, I did read your linked article, which in turn linked (under "Resources") to the "better" sources, in my view. One of them, the Image Permanence Institute, at RIT, apparently does the actual testing for the Red River people. Who in turn give a simplified version of the results, as a "worst case" display lifetime.


I spent a number of years as the QC manager in the processing lab division of a large US studio chain. Our goal was along the lines of best possible quality at a price point, always shooting on the Kodak professional portrait color neg film of the day, printed onto an appropriate professional paper (not necessarily Kodak).

At some point, maybe around 1980, the company realized the possible ramifications of making a bad choice in materials, especially given that we had a 100% satisfaction guaranteed policy. So if we selected a paper with poor longevity it could be a very costly choice. Or even some sort of processing issue that could affect Image stability.

So, under the advice of a guy on the ANSI Image stability committee (name of Henry Wilhelm) we set up an abbreviated image stability testing program. About twice a year we ran a set of tests, for both light AND dark fading. I say abbreviated because a proper dark-fading test would be run at perhaps a half-dozen different temperatures. (This allows predictive time to age.) But given the expense of these temperature and humidity controlled test chambers, we elected to use only one, limiting us to comparative tests, only, with no predictive capabilities.

For more info on the dark-fading test procedures, see Henry Wilhelm's book (free download from his website), p. 177 and 178. Charleston Bard et al of Kodak first published details of this so-called Arrhenius test about 1980.

We also ran a light-fading test at the same time. Again, plenty of detail in Henry's book, see Chapter 3.

Over the years we looked at both dye-sub printers and various inkjet type printers, largely for consideration in studio use. If something was worth looking at we'd print test samples asap in order to get the image stability tests started. They'd take perhaps 4 or 5 months for meaningful results. This would be reading a series of test patches every week or two, depending on the rate of change. One set in the heat chamber, one set in the light chamber, yet another in a file cabinet (as a room temperature reference) plus a master reference, kept frozen. And each new media test would be accompanied by at least one known reference - our current production material.

I realize that this doesn't help the typical photographer, say users of this site. I'm mainly responding to the "nobody knows anything" comment. But it gives people a sense of what might be happening in the processing industry. For a more typical photographer I'd suggest to rely on the vendor of materials that you wanna use. Just ask if they have any image stability data on their materials. Or see if either Wilhelm or Ardenberg has tested same - see their websites. If no tests you're on your own. But... if the vendor has a handful of requests perhaps they'll commission a test from RIT. Who knows? In our case, we mostly stuck with major manufacturers - if something went wrong we wanted the strength of a major manufacturer standing behind us. That is, if THEY supplied defective material then they would be expected to help cover the costs of replacing customer work.

One last comment on light fading... this is such an unpredictable situation. In the case of DARK fading, it's fairly simple to predict for a certain storage temperature (and controlled humidity). But for light fading one may not be able to predict the light levels. In one case perhaps direct sunlight comes through the windows at certain times of the year. Or perhaps contaminants in the air affect the print. So the conditions may be too variable to give a good prediction of print life (however that may be defined).

Wow! Thanks for those additional insights.

I've read that some industrial paint manufacturers do longevity studies, subjecting mixed examples to very harsh lighting.

One of the challenges to inkjet were early pratfalls (Epson's early inks), and inkjet remains constantly under attack by people with zero real experience....but they're ageing-out and mostly switching ( youngers move every 3 years on average and don't want to move darkrooms every time).

A real inkjet complaint has to do with cheap/careless glass frames (where glass contacts surface of print). More of a problem with glossy inkjet than with the increasingly dominant luster surface. Has to do with financials as inkjet prints are vastly less expensive than silver gel, given that inkjet printers like me may casually/frequently glass-frame their work and then them... far less expensive in materials and time to make a day's worth of perfect inkjets than with equivalent darkrooms ... also has to do with use of digital cameras.

I've just returned from an attractive location and will print/hang a second version of 11X17 to replace the first...will likely invest 4 more hours printing maybe 6-10 of second set. And zero time with film in darkroom,.
 
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Dr Dik

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More than anyone needs to know is here.
 
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